Here we go again: “Pro-Liberty, Conservative” Arizona Republicans Foisting Expensive National ID Plans on Law Abiding Arizona Citizens


“Good morning, Citizen.  YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE!”

Representatives Carl Seel (R-LD6) and Frank Antenori (R-LD30) are doing what they think is right and what ostensibly is a good idea: to count illegals in the classroom in order to assess impact of their cost on the state education system.

The intention is right.  But what are the details?  How is this to be implemented?

Well, read the bill!

Text from HB2382:

…school districts shall collect and compile from the parents or legal guardians of all students enrolled in a public school, data concerning students who are enrolled in a public school and who cannot prove lawful presence in the United States.

How are the school districts going to do this?  How will they know who is here LEGALLY in the United States for the 95-99% of us who are law-abiding American citizens ?

Well, that’s obvious, schools will need to verify immigration status of ALL students, including law-abiding Arizona/US citizens.

As a parent, I know what *my* response is going to be when the school asks me to verify the citizenship status of my children.  I cannot post it here.  But it goes a little something like this: “@#$$%% @@!# &&%$##$^ !@#@$^&.”

Will that mean my child is prohibited from attending school?  Will that mean that I, an otherwise, law-abiding, taxpaying productive American citizen who is just sick and tired of government bureaucracy will end up in jail?

For the 99% of us who are citizens, how are we going to comply and what are the ramifications if we do not?

It is American tradition to not force the law-abiding citizen to have to undergo the yolk of government in order that the government can enforce laws against the non-law-abiding.  It is the government’s job to enforce against the non-law-abiding, not for them to heap on additional bureaucratic regulations and costs on the law-abiding because the government cannot or does not enforce its own laws.

The concepts of Reaganism were not only to reduce taxes, but also to reduce REGULATIONS. Regulations increase costs.  Furthermore, Reagan highlighted that government is the PROBLEM, not the solution.

Heaping more government, more bureaucracy and more regulations on the law-abiding citizens of this nation is necessarily anti-liberty and AGAINST the legacy of the Reagan revolution.

Furthermore, these new enforcement mechanisms also necessarily require a national id system, a system to collect information on law-abiding students and families, a system to track law-abiding students and families, a system to enforce the regulations against non-compliant OTHERWISE law-abiding students and families, and then, lastly, the infrastructure to track and enforce against illegal immigration.

All of this involves costs, regulations, but most objectionable: the presumption of guilt against innocent law-abiding citizens by their government.

I know Reps Seel and Antenori are doing what they think is right.  I support enforcement against illegal immigration, but not at the cost of more spending, more regulation and abrogating the presumption of innocence against the 95%-99% of us who are, in fact, innocent.

There is a little something called the Law of Unintended Consequences.  In this case, humanity has been through this before historically.  The bible also weighs in on the numbering of human flesh.  I don’t think I need to elaborate further.

You cannot be anti-liberty and pro-liberty at the same time.  If Reps Seel and Antenori believe they are pro-liberty then they need to protect the liberty of law-abiding Arizona citizens and not heap additional burdens on their children and their families.

At a minimum, to protect those whose religious beliefs preclude placing a mark, the number of a man, in the mind or in the hand of human beings, there must be a religious exemption.

“Citizen, where are your papers?!?  Please come with me.”


  1. I’m pretty sure that when I enrolled my kids in school, I had to produce a birth certificate. Why shouldn’t illegals? It just makes sense.

  2. I showed my kid’s birth certificate to enroll them in Little League today. What’s the problem?

    Thank you Rep’s. Seel and Antenori! Great bill.

  3. I think the author nailed it.

    You cannot be anti-liberty and pro-liberty at the same time.

    If you are increasing spending, increasing regulations, or increasing governmental “compliance” burdens on individuals, you are ANTI LIBERTY.

    If you are reducing spending, reducing regulations and reducing compliance burdens on individuals, you are PRO LIBERTY.

    Again, you cannot be both. You’re one or the other. In the case of this post, regardless of the INTENT (which I happen to AGREE with), the implementation is clearly ANTI LIBERTY.

  4. nightcrawler says

    I agree with the Paulies and Oberserve on this.

    Imagine having to carry the card where ever you go, to the beach, to a football game, to a political event, to the store etc..

    What if you lose it or forget it at home ?

    Will you be presumed a foreigner until you find your card ?

    We live in a free society, our freedoms did not come without sacrifice. It is very easy to give freedoms up but alas, extremely hard to add them back.

    Think it through.

  5. Every school we’ve put our kids in REQUIRED the original birth certificate for enrollment. SO, that’s been going on for years already.

    So, how is it that there are illegal kids in schools? What paperwork did they produce? If they didn’t produce adequate documentation, on what basis did the schools admit them? Did they produce fraudulant documents? That’s quite the little industry these days.

    Is it a big charade by schools to be all firm and unyielding for obvious citizens, who then think everyone is held to the same standard, while giving a wink and a nod to illegals?

    With school funding directly tied to the NUMBER of students in the school, the public schools have a big big financial motivation to bring in as many students as they can.

    THAT sort of thing needs to be answered BEFORE coming up with new laws. WHY aren’t the old ones working? If the laws on the books are being ignored, what good is new laws layered on that will be ignored?

    If there was a sensible guest worker program, kids of guest workers could attend schools space permitting since the employed parents would be paying taxes and fees too. None of this would be a problem or an issue.

    AS usual, the root of the problem isn’t being addressed, just the symptoms.

  6. This is not about showing a birth certificate.

    This is about “card swipes”.

    If you deny law-abiding Americans access to things they pay tax dollars for because they refuse to swipe their national id card, you are


    There’s no way around it.

  7. Err-umm, Dick Cheney is not VP anymore. He followed the laws of the USA and voluntarily stepped down after the 2008 election.

    Use a phony, non-sensical photo for a phony, non-sensical story.

  8. nightcrawler says

    The anti-illegal rhetoric has reached such a fever pitch as to actually convince people to live in what amounts to a police state.

    We already have driver’s licenses, passports, birth certificates, green cards, social security cards. What is one more card going to do ? Those who want to make fakes will just make another, I don’t get it.

  9. So why is Dick Cheney, “Puppet Dictator” on the card? Makes quite the farce out of the whole issue.

    He’s not even in office anymore. Even when he was, don’t recall him ever mentioning being interested in something like this. But Hillary Clinton wanted a national health ID card (developed by Ross Perot’s EDS company) Obama wants a national database and national health ID card (General Electric is manuvering for that mega billion contract), to trace every movement a person makes, by all health care and bank records tie-ins. Obama-Pelosi-Reid are verbally announcing plans to ram this thru ASAP. But, don’t see THEIR mugs on such types of liberty-strangling cards, but Cheney’s. How convenient.

    The poltical party that is ALWAYS angling to nationalise soemthing and Federally ID the American people is the Democratic Party – UNTIL it’s election time and then they don’t voters to have to identify themselves in any credible manner.

    But, since so many people have been trained to unquestioningly drool and freak every time Cheney’s name is mentioned makes him an official boogeyman of the Left. He’ll be invoked by Progressive parents to scare their save the planet one child kids into eating their sustainably harvested oatmeal, for the next two hundred years.

    The Democrats – in a one party domination rule of White House-Congress-Senate are poised to force the most oppressive control system ever devised by Totalitarians on the American People and they’ll be hiding behind “Cheney Puppet Master.”

    Just pathetic.

  10. Jeez, it’s just a graphic. I think it’s pretty funny. Lighten up on the things that DONT matter.

    Mandatory card checks by the government for American citizes, on the other hand, is a very serious matter.

    I don’t care what they say it’s for or why.
    It’s wrong. End of story.

  11. On this one, place me in the company of “Observe” and yikes, “Crawler”

    Those who resist (and rightly so) “big government” and “big brother” attacks on their freedom, culture and religious beliefs should not support measures that inflict on others either at home or abroad!

    Inevitably, any national I.D. card will be used by a centralizing tyranny against the average citizen to enforce political, philosophical and ideological uniformity!

    There are many valid ways to deal with the illegal immigration crisis we now face!

    I.D. cards are not one of them!

  12. Stephen Kohut says

    Our kids and granddaughter all were enrolled in their various schools birth certificate in hand. It was required. No where in the bill does it require any new or different documentation than is required now. The ID card stuff is smoke and mirrors. Show me where the bill refers to any new ID. The whiners on this sound to me like the proamnesty chorus.

    It costs “we the AZ taxpayer” about $1.2B a year to educate criminal alien children. I for one want that to be $0. It is about time we got serious on criminal aliens and getting it fixed and them deported.

    The Supreme Court said we have to educate criminal alien children if they are here. Nothing prevents the state from mandating that the enrolling adult provide proof of legal residency for themselves or the child. We will be more than happy to educate the child up to the time we deport them the entire bunch.

  13. Then go join the border patrol or the minutemen. When you impose upon me and my family your own personal will , when it’s against MY religious beliefs I am going to resist you. Tooth and nail.

  14. Steve:

    As any contributer to this site can attest, I’m the last person one can accuse of being an “amnesty” supporter, but I’m very suspicous of governmental intrusions which always seem to be taken to higher levels than their original, stated purpose. If you don’t believe me, witness the use of social security numbers.

    I’m also leery of information given to census takers. For a good long time the Census Bureau would turn over gathered information to the IRS, and more often than not, the info provided a base for politically motivated “fishing expeditions”

    We’re talking about a much more sophisticated methodology than birth certificate requirements!

  15. Rosco P Coltrane says

    Yeah, look what has happened with the ID cards we already have.

    A drivers license was supposed to allow you the privilege to drive because you were competent enough to pass a written and live exam. Now look at all the uses the government has for it.

    A social security card was just an identifier for your retirement benefits. That little 9-digit number is now more an identifier of you than your physical presence.

    No more ID cards, no more uses for the IDs we have. The schools already know who is legal and who is not. There is no need for this new law except to subject the law-abiding citizens to more big-brother tyranny.

  16. It’s a big leap to assume that a national ID card will be mandated when just a simple birth certificate will do. It has always been a policy that schools required a birth certificate to enroll your kids in school. When did this stop being enforced? Oh yeah, when illegals started enrolling. Why is it required for my kids to show a birth certificate and not some illegal’s child? It’s a continuation of political correctness that is bankrupting this country. We require more documentation and obedience to the law from our own legal citizens than we do of illegal foreigners.

  17. When the government undertakes to screen ALL people, including law-abiding, to catch the less than 1% who are not law-abiding, the next step, historically speaking, without exception, is to attempt to streamline the process or make it more efficient.

    There’s only one way to do that

    Card Check Swipes.

    In other words, national id.

  18. GOP Boomer Gal says

    Because the voters of AZ approved prop 104( I think that’s the one; I couold be wrong), we have to show a BC or passport to renew our nursing licenses, and this applies for any employment.

    I don’t see this as being any different.

  19. As usual, most of the commenters on this post have only half their facts right.

    Birth certificates or equivalent are required of ALL students, legally here or not.

    As Stephen Kohut pointed out, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states (including Arizona) are REQUIRED to provide free K-12 education to every school age child, legally here or not.

    So this bill doesn’t actually get rid of illegal immigrants, it simply requires schools to count them.

    I will be a little more nuanced than some of the other commenters. Liberties get infringed on all the time, but we should hope those infringements pass any basic cost-benefit ratio. Would this? It doesn’t actually remove any illegal immigrants, it turns the school into another census taker for the purposes of collecting data so other folks can make political arguments.

    Doesn’t sound like it ranks high on the cost-benefit scale nor is it a very good use of school time and resources. Another example of conservatives liking big government just as much as the liberals.

  20. “So this bill doesn’t actually get rid of illegal immigrants, it simply requires schools to count them.”

    Once again, HOW do you count them? The devil is in the details.

    The only possible way is to CHECK EVERYBODY.

    This places yet another burden on the law-abiding.

    Further, once the law goes into effect, rent-seeking begins, i.e. how to do it efficiently.

    The only way to do that is card checks.

    That’s the next step. I.e. national ids.

  21. DRUM ROLL….I completely agree with Oberserve and Carlist.

    Arizona schools require a birth certificate already. The origin of birth does not determine citizenship, as naturalization is possible. The well intentioned efforts are just another goofy attempt to do the right thing the wrong way.

    Schools have been specifically warned about even questioning the legal status of students out of concern for “chilling” their rights under Pyler v. Doe.

    Slippery slope…no thanks! My liberty is not to be “traded” for anything. I’m hangin’ with my homies on this one!

  22. Ann, are you trying to libel me with that last comment? 😛

  23. Stephen Kohut says


    Observe – “when it’s against MY religious beliefs I am going to resist you”

    What religious beliefs have to do with showing proof of legal residency to enroll a child in school? Enlighten me. I’m at a loss.

    Observe – “to catch the less than 1% who are not law-abiding”

    That is such a whopper as to be laughable. It has been estimated that over 10% of children enrolled in AZ K-12 schools are here illegally.

    The bill as written requires nothing more than what happens today when a child is enrolled in school. It may provide data on how bad the problem is but will not change the situation.

    I would prefer that the bill require proof of legal residency for the enrolling adult avoiding any potnetial conflict with the Supreme Court and, while they await deportation, we’ll be happy to school the child.

    For those who don’t know it all AZ drivers licenses issued since 1996 indicate whether the holder is a US citizen and can be used to register to vote, as ID at the polls, etc.

  24. Geez, I leave for an afternoon and Ann and Oberserve are mailing out wedding invitations…what next?!!!

  25. Correct re AZ DLs. Additionally, to reach that standard AZ DLs interface with multiple regional and federal systems that exchange your biometric photo, SSN and place of residence. That information is also contained in the US Dept Homeland Security database.

    Not to get off on another subject, but where is it authorized in the constitution for the federal government to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to track law abiding Americans?

  26. Requiring a birth certificate may be a disincentive for illegals to enroll their children in our schools.

    At this point, we have no choice. Had we secured the border properly, the problem of IDing students wouldn’t exist.

    When my kids were born, I was asked to fill out a Social Security form BEFORE I left the hospital. All American kids have a SS number or their parents cannot claim them as a deduction on their taxes. So, why not e-verify children? The system exists, costs very little, and is based on SS numbers.

    My hunch is that parents of illegal children will quickly realize they’ll be caught if we institute a program like e-verify in our public schools.

    Problem solved.

  27. My, my. What active imaginations! It says in the bill they will collect ‘data’, not id cards. Right now, they (the schools et al.) are not allowed to ask! With the bill they will be allowed to ask. Most illegals are so uneducated and afraid (thanks to their upbringing) that they usually answer the question regarding birth with all honesty.

    Of course, if YOUR agenda happens to be not wanting them counted, I would suggest you start screaming about the bill of rights and a coming fascist state.

    Oh, you did…

  28. Oh give it a rest Iris, you’re the
    pro-McAmnesty person here.

  29. Notice “PUBLIC SCHOOL”. Don’t like it? Put your kid in private school. If you gave a damn about them that’s where they would be already.

    All this does is count who’s here legally and who’s not. It’s not denying anything to anyone. So you Juan McCain supporters don’t have to worry. You’ll still be able to give amnesty to all these students.

  30. I never realized how many racist people live in AZ.
    How can a person be “illegal”?
    It was once illegal to be Jewish in Germany. Does that make it alright for lawmakers to make immoral laws?
    Of course not!
    I thought we were all human. We all have rights regardless of where we came from or what plot of land we left our mother’s womb.
    (As if we had a choice in the matter.)
    Wouldn’t it be better to judge people on what they do instead who they are, since we can’t really change who we are. But what we do and say is completely up to us as individuals.
    Instead of worrying about the color of someone’s skin lets worry about what they are doing.
    If we have a problem with people on welfare then get rid of welfare, not people.
    It seems so simple yet no one wants to see it.
    I also don’t understand the “I had to do it so we need to make them do it too” argument.
    That is what is called the “cycle of abuse”.
    If “I” have to pay taxes so should “THEY”.
    The problem isn’t that “THEY” aren’t paying taxes, the problem is that “YOU” ARE without putting up a fight at all.
    Wow this Democracy works really well doesn’t it? Rampant unemployment, worthless currency, over militarized population, dependent on government funds.
    Oh wait! It’s a Republic, OH who cares what you call it. It’s obvious government doesn’t work, so why have it at all?
    Whatever happened to relying on each other and helping and supporting each other without gov’t stepping in?

  31. Annie Hoyle says

    I almost fell for that! Might I suggest a hobby other than typing the craziest thing you can think of on a conservative blog to get a response for kicks?!

  32. The only verifying I need to do in the public school system for my kids’ enrollment is to show them my property tax bill and the cancelled check.

    If they want any more verifying, they can go verify their own @$$.

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