We’re In Big Trouble!

Hat tip to Political Mafioso for this video!

Watch this video and tell me we are not in trouble. It almost makes a sound argument for limiting voting to those who own property and can pass a basic civics test.

God help us! We get the government we deserve.


Comments

  1. It IS the media we need to fight. If we can not get the information out there so that people can make an informed vote, then the elections are a waste of time, energy and money. Instead we can simply call the New York Times and get their decision, OR we can wait until the next morning and read it on the front page. What fun.

  2. Wow. So, Tony made good on his pledge to “delete his journal” for a total of… 10 days.

    I should know better than to take a Republican at his word.

  3. Antifederalist says

    Gee, the ole’ Antifederalist looks less and less crazy every day! John Stossel has also done a piece on why we should allow the stupid to vote (go onto youtube and use the search terms Stossel and voting). Our Founders didn’t trust democracy and built in constitutional protections against democracy, to wit, a REPUBLIC form of government, state legislatures choosing federal Senators, and the electoral college. States originally required voters to be white males over 21 who owned property. Even Plato believed in a permeable caste society in which the smartest controlled the decision-making. One of the Federal Reserve banks wrote a book report on a book advocating rule by free-market economists. Ann Coulter has recently questioned the wisdom of allowing women to vote (I make this statement merely to ILLUSTRATE that a good number of individuals have questioned the wisdom of the universal franchise). So, considering I’m in the company the likes of our Founders, Stossel, Plato, and others in desiring a limited franchise, I feel pretty comfortable. I ain’t so crazy after all. Perhaps those who criticize me should think again.

    To forestall the lemming chorus that will complain about a limited franchise, NO system on the face of the planet is perfect. What we need to arrive at is the LEAST FLAWED system for voting. Like the free market is the least flawed economic system, a limited franchise (assuming it DOESN’T allow ONLY the dumb to vote) is far better than a universal franchise.

    Since our founding, we have done nothing but expand the franchise through the courts, state law, federal law, and the constitutional amendment process. Add in voter fraud on top of that, and we have the lowest common denominator making the CRITICAL decisions as to who should lead. Oh, yeah, THAT is optimal! One famous quote, surrounded by attribution controversy, states, “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” Guess what, kiddos?! America is MORE than 200 years old and the masses just elected the socialist that promised them the greatest number of goodies. Socialistic give-aways of bread and spending on circuses contributed to the Roman Empire’s demise. As early as FDR and the Raw Deal, if not earlier, Americans figured they could vote themselves largess. Go see the movie IOUSA and see just how much financial danger this country is really in. Enjoy America’s demise! YOU are responsible!

    And why isn’t Politico Mafioso defunct. He lost the bet to Klute and was supposed to take down his site. Is he welching on his bet? If so, I guess I was right about him all along.

  4. And how is this any different from the “Uh, well, he’s an Arab…” Lady or the braying idiot masses who think that Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii?

  5. Sonoran Sam says

    Yeah, it’s the young kids who voted for Obama who are dumb…not the right-wing morons who complain that Obama is a Muslim (Or, as one idiot spelled it on a sign, a “Muslin.”)

    And the dumb ones aren’t the boobs who are buying every gun in sight because they think the Democrats will repeal the 2nd Amendment – or those who call Obama a “Socialist,” but applauded McCain for stepping in to provide $700 billion in corporate welfare, or those who hang cats and brought stuffed monkeys to McCain events.

    As Forrest Gump said, Stupid is as Stupid does, and there’s plenty of that to go around.

    The kids in this video are young. What’s your excuse, Anti-Federalist?

  6. Interesting – I don’t see anyone here in the comment section attempting to refute Zeigler’s principal thesis that the mainstream media carried Obama to and over the finish line. There is abundant evidence all around that this is the case. Any takers with factual evidence to the contrary?

  7. Because it can’t be proved or disproved and is ultimately a matter of perspective? How did the “He’s an Arab” Lady come to that conclusion? Did it just pop into her head, or did the endless drone of misinformation from the “non-mainstream media” put it there? While we’re at it, why not put a final stamp on whether the hero chose the lady or the tiger?

    Bonus point: Because Zeigler’s ulimate point will be lost by the “Look at these rubes!” commentary that is what this thing is wrapped in?

  8. It is quite clear the coverage was horrendous – hiding gaffs McCain made as well as Obama and not giving any air time to third party candidates. This is the real bias.

    Antifederalist has some facts wrong. Plato believed in a authoritarian state with forced breeding programs. His views on human nature and politics are total crackpot. Of course those who would gain from limiting others rights always think it is a great idea. I wonder how long it would have taken your propertied white males to vote out slavery.

    Additionally, many things can lay claim to causing Rome to “fall” (if it actually did which is arguable) , but claiming it was due to a type of socialism is just wrong. What made Rome “fall” was an imperial policy which stretched itself too thin and relied on proxies to keep stable. It also become ruled by insular thought and disdain for other cultures. Finally, it actually turned much of government to “privatization” through massive (legal) corruption. Sounds like what we got right now, even before Obama takes the oath of office.

  9. Antifederalist says

    Untersturmfuhrer Klute and Sonoran Sam,
    While I hate NObama because he’s a socialist, I reasoned with fellow Republicans that it is most likely that he was born in Hawaii and he is a U.S. citizen eligible to be President. It is well known that he went to Jakarta when his mother married an Indonesian. In his own book, he admitted he attended Muslim schools. Yet, I don’t believe he’s a Muslim. However, I am concerned that he’s not sufficiently pro-Israel and I am concerned that he will be sympathetic to Muslims at the wrong time, like when we trusted the Northern Alliance to keep Osama hemmed in when we were pounding the crap out of Tora Bora.

    Sam, I have in my e-mail inbox, a picture of protesters holding signs that read “I Have a Deram.” and “I Have a Draem”. Does that make all civil rights protesters dumb?

    As for the Second Amendment, D.C. illustrated for many years that by mere city law the Second Amendment can be rendered meaningless. There’s PLENTY of reasons to conclude that the Dems are going to continue to erode the 2nd Amendment.

    As for corporate welfare, I’ve opposed it viciously at every turn. In fact, I opposed it WELL before EESA, the TARP, or the Capital Purchase Plan ever came about. I’ve been a vicious critic of publicly supported sports teams, etc. I wholly oppose government meddling in the market at every turn because they ALWAYS create greater inefficiencies than they “solve” and they create unintended consequences.

    I’ve never attended a McLame event. I blasted him as hard as I could on this blog. I did NOT vote for McLame. I voted for Barr. I announced my support for Barr shortly after he won the Libertarian nod.

    So, Sam, against me, you missed on EVERY point. You fail…epicly. I’ll spare the audience the ad hominem attack against you that you SO richly deserve.

    And uh, Klute, yeah, you’re right: stupidity exists on BOTH sides of the aisle. I don’t remember saying that dumb Republicans should be allowed to vote while dumb Dems should be barred from voting. I don’t think ANY dummies should be voting, no matter what party they’re a member of. I’ve been around dumb Republicans before. They make my skin crawl, just like Dems do. To have them on my side of the aisle lessens our credibility. As I’ve said before, I’d just rather not allow the dumb to vote.

  10. Antifederalist says

    Todd,
    I’ve read The Republic several times, in both high school and college. I do NOT have my facts wrong. Plato spoke about dividing society into gold, silver, and bronze castes wherein the golds would rule. His caste system was also permeable…in both directions. I merely cited Plato as a well-known person who advocated against democracy. I did not embrace everything in Plato’s wrtings wholesale. You REALLY need to work on that reading comprehension and logic.

    Additionally, I didn’t say that free bread and circuses were the SOLE causes of the downfall of the Empire. I SPECIFICALLY said that those expenditures CONTRIBUTED. Again, learn to read. That means that it HELPED or ACCELERATED, even in a small way, the Empire’s demise. The Romans were notorious for high taxes and profligate spending, two hallmarks of socialism. Again, both CONTRIBUTED to the Empire’s collapse, but were not the SOLE causes. Some have even posited that lining aqueducts with lead caused the downfall too. The truth is that a multitude of factors contributed to the Empire’s decline. Just because I didn’t cite every single cause doesn’t invalidate the two I listed.

    For you to attack me on those two niggling points, and incorrectly at that, just goes to show how inane most of the things you write on this blog really are. I have YET to see you write anything convincing, intelligent, or well supported.

  11. hmmm…this video was up on Seeing Red AZ hours ago and you are crediting Jeff Vath? The RINO influence was detected earlier. This confirms it.

  12. Jeff sent the link to us. The video is ALL OVER the web. It doesn’t matter if SRAZ or PM gets the credit. The real credit goes to FoxNews who aired it on Hannity and Colmes last night.

  13. AF,

    “It is well known that he went to Jakarta when his mother married an Indonesian. In his own book, he admitted he attended Muslim schools. Yet, I don’t believe he’s a Muslim.”

    I’m glad you’ve haven’t signed up for a 2-year stint in the Idiot Brigades, but to pour even more water on these rumors…

    Going to a Muslim school in Indonesia (the world’s largest Islamic nation) is not a big deal. It’s akin to going to a Catholic school in Italy – parochial schools, be they Islamic or Catholic, will play to their base.

    “I am concerned that he will be sympathetic to Muslims at the wrong time…”

    If by that you mean “He’s not going to bomb Iran at the behest of Israel”, you’re probably right. But I think he’ll be better for Israel than “ATTENTION PALESTINIANS: YOU MUST HOLD ELECTIONS NOW!” bullhorn shouting done by the Bush Admin.

    “we trusted the Northern Alliance to keep Osama hemmed in when we were pounding the crap out of Tora Bora.”

    Who’s this “we”? People like me were shouting at anyone who’d listen that this was mistake. Never trust a populace where the saying “Yesterday was yesterday; today is today” is a common philosophy.

    “I don’t remember saying that dumb Republicans…”

    Didn’t say you did. That was more putting it out there to remind everyone that no political party has a monopoly on stupid.

  14. Antifederalist – you cite Plato, Stossel and the Founders as people who, like you, believe in limited franchise. You are appealing to these people’s perceived authority as to why you “ain’t crazy” so it is perfectly valid to point out when one of these sources held views about government most would find reprehensible thereby undercutting any claim that their authority somehow backs your opinions (I could have also pointed to the countless things Stossel is totally wrong about and his deception. I could also have pointed out the the “Founders” did not have a unified view on franchise and in fact there was a great deal of disagreement).

    Let me also point out your understanding of the Republic is flawed. Plato did not suggest the society be divided into gold, silver and bronze caste what you are talking about is Plato’s “Noble Lie” which is the myth people in the Republic would be told about how their society works. People would be told that there was social mobility based upon the nature of their soul – gold, silver bronze or iron” – only to promote social order even though it was entirely untrue. You have fundamentally misunderstood Plato.

    Secondly, high taxes are not a hallmark of socialism. Many societies have had high taxes and not been socialist. Many societies have had huge spending and not been socialist.

    I am also familiar with the libertarian claim the Rome was in part brought down because of high taxes and I find them pretty weak. But you did not claim high taxes cause the problem you claimed ” Socialistic give-aways of bread and spending on circuses” were partly responsible. This is totally wrong.

    The “bread” or free grain the Rome dispensed was only for adult Roman citizens and was not enough to even remotely live on and thus there was a widespread market for grain which was entirely private. The small amount of free grain, along with the circuses, was paid directly out of the private wealth of the emperor and had nothing to do with taxes. Therefore your entire claim that socialist or socialist like policies to provide bread and circuses had anything to do with the collapse of Rome is bogus.

    The taxes that were levied were used to build and repair roads and provide for defense of the vast area of the Empire – payments to the army, building vast forts and protections. OF course all this expansion was necessary to expand the pool of slave, which were the real wealth of Rome.

    I don’t at all find these “niggling” points as these undermine what you claim as evidence to support your point of view.

    Finally, I would like to use the discussion of Rome to point to a further problem with your basic position. You seem to assume that in limiting franchise and direct democracy you increase the chance of getting “better” decisions. When Rome was still a republic it had very limited franchise and yet the Senate still managed to vote Julius Caesar dictator for life, thereby effectively ending the republic – a monumentally bad decision they could only partially remedy by killing him on the Senate floor.

  15. In terms of voters with incorrect information, I would point anyone to look up a University of Texas poll from late October that found that 23% of registered voters in Texas believed Obama was a Muslim. I can’t find the information, but I do assume most of these people were not voting for him.

  16. I have a question. Who would decide who was too stupid to vote? Would there be a schooling requirement? College? High school diploma? I got high marks in school, and had tested into honors classes. As of right now, I have about 3 college credits. Would you consider me too stupid to vote? Where do you draw the line?

  17. Below is Nate Silver’s (of the amazingly accurate FiveThirtyEight.Com website) interview with John Zeigler. It’s hilarious. There’s a reason why people like him can only get gigs on Fox.

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/interview-with-john-ziegler-on-zogby.html

  18. Klute – thanks for posting – I was going to post that as well as I think it pretty clearly demonstrates what is going on with Zeigler.

    This also has some more information which challenges the credibility of this poll
    http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/wingnuts-latest-obama-voters-are-sto

  19. I couldn’t begin to defend Ziegler as effectively as Ed Morrissey, so I direct you to this link:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/19/ziegler-responds-to-his-critics/

    And Todd – in regard to the UT poll, can you name one mainstream media outlet that advanced the notion that Obama is a Muslim? Sure – there are crackpots in tin-foil hats all over the internet advancing all kinds of hare-brained conspiracy theories, but again – Ziegler’s thesis is not that there are anti-Obama whack jobs, rather that the mainstream media shilled for Obama from the very beginning. Let’s get our focus back on the issue at hand. Anybody care to provide hard evidence that the media were even close to being fair and even-handed in this election? Good luck . . .

  20. The fun part will happen in 2-4 years, when BHO has pulled his Jimmy Carter redux, and succeeded in ruining the economy to the point where a leftist will not be able to get elected dog catcher.

    Then people such as those depicted in this video will have little or no impact, because all the people who sat this one out (for those on the left who can actually read turnout numbers, there were quite a few) will come out and vote for whatever *real* conservative who shows up to run, much like Reagan did post-Carter.

    Obama didn’t beat McCain, Bush and McCain himself did. In a couple of years, once “buyer’s remorse” has had time to set in, all of this nonsense from the left will dry up and blow away, just like it always does.

    Enjoy your time while you have it. You’ll blow it, soon enough, just like you always do.

  21. That’s your defense, John?

    Ed Morrissey? The guy who predicted, facts be damned, a McCain win?

    A multiple-choice answer to a false question is akin to a Hobson’s choice. Palin never said Russia could be seen from her house. Obama did not launch his political career from William Ayers living room (no matter how desperately you tried to insert that in the public consciousness). This:

    “Which of the four [candidates] won his first election by getting opponents kicked off the ballot?”

    Please. That’s the only reason why he won. And I guess later, Obama won his Senate seat “only” because Jack Ryan had a messy divorce, Mike Ditka didn’t run, and Alan Keyes is a loon.

    I’m not going to dissect the rest of Morrissey’s post because it’s useless (as is Morrissey). And frankly, I’d prefer you idiots keep fighting these battles: the birth certificate, the Muslim thing, Obama’s voters are stupid.

    And while you’re chasing your tails trying to win an election that you’ve already lost, we’re two votes away from a fillibuster-proof majority in the Senate and we’ll create an Obama Court.

  22. “… we’ll create an Obama Court.”

    How?

    Unless Anthony Kennedy retires suddenly, for no currently known reason, that would fall under the category of “Good luck with that”.

    Roberts, Scalia, Thomas, and Alito are all in good health and have no plans to retire anytime soon. The only justices who are looking at retirement now are already on the liberal side. So how, exactly, are you planning on achieving this?

    Know something that the rest of us don’t? Are Obama’s “civil service corps” the folks buying up all those guns, or what?

    C’mon, spill! 😉

  23. You’re right, Klute – how silly of me. Captain Ed’s incorrect prediction renders all his future statements untrue – Q.E.D.

    I am most certainly not trying to “win an election” that was “already lost.” Obama clearly won, with a whole lot of help from the mainstream media. Neither Ziegler nor myself are asserting that “Obama voters are stupid,” as you continue to insist. We are asserting that a plurality of voters were propagandized by the mainstream media on behalf of Senator Obama. No one has even attempted to dispute that fact in this thread.

    I won’t be so bold as to predict whether Coleman can overcome the illegal chicanery in which Al Franken is engaged, but the much-vaunted filibuster-proof majority in the Senate would prove politically beneficial to the right. As the economy continues to crater, I’ll be interested to see what kind of remedies The One and his 100% bullet-proof legislative branch will offer. Or put differently – the DJIA is headed south at a precipitous rate . . . let’s see you fix that, Messiah. We’re all watching . . . good luck.

  24. “You’re right, Klute – how silly of me. Captain Ed’s incorrect prediction renders all his future statements untrue – Q.E.D.”

    His predicition was not faulty because he misread the data, his predicition was faulty because he ignored the facts and went “Rah Rah Rah!”…

    “Obama clearly won, with a whole lot of help from the mainstream media.”

    BS. Just like Kerry won with all his help from the mainstream media? Saying “Obama is president because of the MSM” is an excuse for thinking.

    “We are asserting that a plurality of voters were propagandized by the mainstream media on behalf of Senator Obama. No one has even attempted to dispute that fact in this thread.”

    I’m not going to “dispute a fact” something that can neither be proven or disproven nor is a “fact” (2004’s electoral result would seem to disprove your little hypothesis).

    “I won’t be so bold as to predict whether Coleman can overcome the illegal chicanery in which Al Franken is engaged…”

    None of which the courts, nor even Republican governor Tim Pawlenty, has indicated is happening. And if you were someone, the “illegal chicanery” bit is actionable as libel.

    I think it’s amusing who freaked out you conservatives get. We on the left don’t call him “The One” or “Messiah”, we see him as a politician, a statesmen if your being obsequieous. Watching you all mess your beds about this has been the most gratifying thing about this whole election.

    “let’s see you fix that”

    And when he does, the irrelevancy of the GOP will continue at a terrifying rate.

  25. Astonishing how you can read right past my words, Klute.

    I said nothing about why Morrissey predicted what he did – I just tossed some cold sarcastic water on your implication that he’s always wrong, hence not worth hearing out.

    And don’t put words in my mouth – I never said “Obama is president because of the MSM.” There are numerous reasons why Obama won the election, not the least of which is a huge amount of help from the MSM. Kerry was so inept that the MSM assist didn’t make enough difference.

    Similarly, the assertion made by Ziegler, and supported by me is not that Obama won the election exclusively due to MSM support, only that it made a substantial difference. Without it, he may have still won. But no one dares to dispute that he had that support. Have you seen HuffPo’s quote of Chris Matthews today?

    You don’t have to “be someone” to libel someone – even little old me can libel people, but I’m certainly not doing so in the case of Franken. I don’t know where you studied mass communications law, but I was taught that the defendant must prove (among other things) that the plaintiff has said something about them that isn’t true. I’d LOVE to see the question of whether Franken is engaged in illegal activities tried in open court. Something tells me he wouldn’t be as enthusiastic about it as I am.

    And actually, thousands if not millions of liberals, leftists, and other assorted Democrats have referred to Senator Obama as “The One” or “The Messiah.” That’s a hard, cold fact. I promise you I am not the least bit “freaked out” by Obama’s election. This is like 1976 all over again, only much better this time. Jimmah Carter was not promoted as the savior of mankind, capable of lowering the oceans and singlehandedly solving global economic crises. Obama has been billed as such, and I hope you personally are not so naive as to believe that he can singlehandedly halt the precipitous descent of the global economy. That kind of magic is beyond even the most powerful US president. And unfortunately for him and his followers, he will most assuredly be held responsible for the failure to solve the problems, and American voters will decide whether to continue to support his warm, gauzy message of “hopenchange.”

    You closed with a poke at the GOP, likely because you are under the mistaken impression that I align with that party. You’re almost right – I used to be a proud member, and I believe I will be again someday when the Republicans are no longer the “socialist lite” party. Until then, you hammer them from the left, I’ll hammer them from the right.

  26. “And Todd – in regard to the UT poll, can you name one mainstream media outlet that advanced the notion that Obama is a Muslim?”

    John, you are missing the point. Zeigler and others want us to believe that “false” beliefs people have are because of mainstream news bias. The UT poll indicates that many opinions people have which are totally false about one of the four political candidates don’t even come from mainstream news (although I do think this was discussed on Fox and talk radio). I would be surprised if the people interviewed even watch the news as I can’t possibly imagine how anyone could be a regular watcher of national news and not know the Dems control Congress.

    I do think there is a very strong bias in the media around a “Washington consensus” which is shared by politicians of both major parties. The is a bias in the media to be stenographers for the two major parties and not report on opinions which are not largely supported by one or the other. I believe this is the bias which is most destructive. The rest is rather transitory and depends on context. The media was quite biased in favor of Bush leading up to the invasion of Iraq, to the point where valid arguments against it barely received any airtime.

    I am confused by one suggestion you make – that thousands of “leftists” refer to Obama as the Messiah. Were have you seen this because I have to tell you I have seen no evidence of this.

  27. I agree with you, Todd – the mainstream media are not the ONLY source for information, but they are the primary source for most Americans. And it’s true – there was moonbattery on both sides all over the internet. But most Americans receive most of their news and information from the mainstream media (including pop media outlets like late-night talk shows and Hollywood royalty magazines,) and Ziegler’s contention is that these media very heavily favored Obama. I have asked a couple of times now for evidence to the contrary (hint: I’m challenging anyone to find hard statistical evidence that most of the mainstream media presented McCain-Palin in a more positive light than they presented Obama-Biden) . . . good luck. Any assertion that the “Washington stenographers” do not heavily favor the left is nonsense on stilts. There is a vast body of evidence contradicting that position.

    As to the “leftists” who refer to Obama as the messiah or “the one” (and or a “lightworker, etc.) here you go:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/06/notes060608.DTL

    http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/26/83118/7371/654/503796

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE&feature=related

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1207/7281.html

    My point is that Obama is already beginning to suffer from vastly inflated expectations – watch in the next few days as the committed left revolts against Obama’s hawkish cabinet picks. Let’s face it, there’s a certain percentage of the voting public who literally believed that Obama could “lower the oceans” and “heal the planet” singlehandedly. The buyers’ remorse is going to be virtually impossible for Team Obama to overcome in the mid-term election and in 2012. I will make that bold prediction.

  28. Antifederalist says

    Untersturmfuhrer Klute,
    Leave the lawyering up to the lawyers, OK? Political speech is more highly protected than any other form of speech. Additionally, Franken is a public figure. Much more can be said about public figures than the common man. Franken would have an INCREDIBLY difficult burden to prove libel in the case of John’s writings. You’re just trying to bully John, and to those with a legal education, you look like an idiot.

    As for Obama attending Islamic schools in Indonesia, I’ve also heard that those schools require the attending child to be a Muslim (I’m skeptical of this since Obama’s book claims the schools educated more than just Muslims) and that the schools require the students to be citizens of Indonesia which requires citizens to renounce other citizenships. Still, I’m skeptical. If all this is true, how come he hasn’t been absolutely plastered with this all the other times he’s run for office? Makes me think it’s a canard.

    As for the “we” in my statement, I meant the US, as in, “we kicked the crap out of the Germans and Japanese in WWII.” You ARE a US citizen, right, Klute? If so, in the context of that statement, you’re a we. And like you, I too knew that the Northern Alliance would betray us as soon as I heard that they were involved in the assault on Tora Bora.

    Todd,
    As usual, you are wrong. It’s not me that has misunderstood Plato, but you. The “Noble Lie” is nothing more than the label that Plato puts on his “justification” for the structure of his society. Plato knew full well that there is not gold, silver, or copper in the people’s veins, but that’s what he tells the gullible. Additionally, Plato discusses watching the children of the gold caste and lowering their status if they exhibit signs of stupidity. And while it’s been a little while since I’ve perused the pages of the Republic, I’m almost certain I’ve read passages stating that if the lower castes exhibited intelligence beyond their caste, they could be promoted. I’m not going to look it up, you’re not worth the time. I just find great glee in exposing you for the perpetually wrong idiot that you are.

    You’re also wrong on high taxes being a hallmark of socialism. You missed that ALL socialistic societies have had high taxes AND spending. There’s just no way for a society to nationalize industry, pay everyone’s health care costs, over-regulate the economy, fund useless programs, or employ millions without raping the masses of their hard-earned money.

    As for the Romans, they were notorious for their excesses, and they paid for it through high taxation. Emperors couldn’t care less if their extravagant spending required higher taxes (sounds like Dummycrats to me). If Emperors wanted more cash, they raised taxes. Pretty much what the Emperor said was law. That makes for a command economy rather than a free market.

    While you’re almost always wrong, you’re right that even those who enjoy a limited franchise can make mistakes, it’s part of being human. Again, what we need to find is the LEAST flawed system. The least flawed system is not the democracy we’ve embraced.

    To “A Question,”
    I haven’t really considered exactly how the franchise should be limited. Considering how institutions of “higher learning” have been so thoroughly infiltrated by looney left professors, putting an education requirement on voting currently would only ensure that those who have been indoctrinated by the left vote. I’ve considered starting with disenfranchising anyone who’s ever been registered a Democrat, but over time, even communists would register as Republicans in order to vote. Honestly, I think the best check on the leftward march democracies always take is to adopt something akin to Turkey’s constitutional military coups. Turkey’s military is charged with throwing out the government if it ever becomes too Islamic. Perhaps we should amend the constitution to charge our military with removing from office the entire government if it slides too far to the left.

  29. For some reason, my most recent comment has been in moderation since Thursday afternoon – most likely due to the four links I included to demonstrate examples of Obama worship. Hopefully this link:

    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=C5D8C5D4-18FE-70B2-A8220008CD2D5EA4

    won’t get my comment tossed into the moderation bin – it addresses the media bias issue very handily. A prominent member of the MSM admits readily that the coverage was incredibly biased. Hopefully my comment of Thursday will eventually show up here as well.

  30. Antifederalist –
    What you wrote about Plato not believing in the gold etc. casts is exactly what I was saying but apparently you don’t understand the importance of that. You also completely missed the point that high taxes are instituted by many forms of governments not just socialist ones. You are also wrong about Rome but I see you’ve backed away from your completely erroneous claim about bread and circuses.

    Now, your answer to “A Question,” questions shows the extent you are a little proto-fascist idiot. I find glee in you exposing yourself for what you truly are.

  31. I’ve decided to re-submit my comment from Thursday sans links (I believe that they are why this comment has languished in “awaiting moderation” limbo for so long.) I guess you all will just have to take it on faith that I had four links establishing that many leftists and liberals (including a substantial number among liberal “leadership”) are under the impression that Obama is some kind of messiah (or “The One” or a “lightworker”) Frankly, to deny that fact is simply partisan obfuscation – gimme a break. Here is the text of my comment, verbatim (with the exception of the apparently offensive links) . . .

    I agree with you, Todd – the mainstream media are not the ONLY source for information, but they are the primary source for most Americans. And it’s true – there was moonbattery on both sides all over the internet. But most Americans receive most of their news and information from the mainstream media (including pop media outlets like late-night talk shows and Hollywood royalty magazines,) and Ziegler’s contention is that these media very heavily favored Obama. I have asked a couple of times now for evidence to the contrary (hint: I’m challenging anyone to find hard statistical evidence that most of the mainstream media presented McCain-Palin in a more positive light than they presented Obama-Biden) . . . good luck. Any assertion that the “Washington stenographers” do not heavily favor the left is nonsense on stilts. There is a vast body of evidence contradicting that position.

    As to the “leftists” who refer to Obama as the messiah or “the one” (and or a “lightworker, etc.) here you go:

    REDACTED LINKS

    My point is that Obama is already beginning to suffer from vastly inflated expectations – watch in the next few days as the committed left revolts against Obama’s hawkish cabinet picks. Let’s face it, there’s a certain percentage of the voting public who literally believed that Obama could “lower the oceans” and “heal the planet” singlehandedly. The buyers’ remorse is going to be virtually impossible for Team Obama to overcome in the mid-term election and in 2012. I will make that bold prediction.

  32. John,
    I think leftists are generally skeptical of Obama. Maybe you mean liberals. The press may have favored Obama at some points in the campaign but it seemed the turning point may have been McCain’s pick of Palin. At other times it seemed to tilt towards McCain. Remember it was McCain that referred to the press as his “base.”

    Now, Ziegler’s has a claim – that the press had a bias for Obama – and we can argue that, what I have attempted to point to is that the evidence he has simply does not support that claim one way or another. I think there are several fallacies in his thinking, in particular that the “misinformed” (and really, the questions are rather suspect) were that way because of media coverage. A rather small portion of the public even bothers to watch National MSM so it is most likely people’s impressions come from jokes on Leno, Letterman, etc.

  33. Antifdederalist says

    Todd, you retard, exactly how can I be a “proto-fascist” when I favor extremely limited government, low taxes, and personal liberty? Since I hate government in the extreme, I am the exact OPPOSITE of a fascist. The fascists were socialists, they tried to regulate just about everything an nationalized industries. Again, those are hallmarks of socialism just like high taxes are. Look in the mirror buddy, the fascist is you. Get a clue.

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