People get ready …


Comments

  1. Yup, everything is for sale – except the wife and kids (and some days the kids are a bargain 🙂

  2. I wonder if the right-wing will take any responsibility for their rhetoric when something terrible a la Oklahoma City happens?

  3. Klute,

    When domestic terrorists like Bill Ayers rears his ugly head after the Obama election and starts pushing for the search and prosecution of gun and religion clinging Americans, will you stand up and defend them?

    Remember, it was Ayers who said, “There is a struggle over various religious fundamentalism, Jihad being the most visible, but the religious fundamentalism of the Christians and of the Jews is equally troubling.”

    Obama & Odinga

    [Obama & Odinga]

    If Obama is elected, we may very well see the formation of a movement that is an equal and opposite reaction to the liberal socialist political movement taking place in America.

    Keep in mind that the election map is not entirely “blue” and large regions of the country will reject Obama’s socialist agenda.

    It would not be unusual to see the formation of a “Freedom Fighters” underground movement much like what Ayers created in 1969 to challenge “The New Establishment.”

    The bottom line is this. If Obama is elected alongside a very liberal Congress and there is a push to socialize major institutions across America, there will be a opposite and equal reaction to such political movement by citizens who will see themselves having the moral obligation to mount valiant efforts to preserve and protect this country and its heritage.

    Purchasing firearms is just one small indication of this anticipated outcome.

  4. “I wonder if the right-wing will take any responsibility for their rhetoric when something terrible a la Oklahoma City happens?”

    You’re serious? Some idiot sets off a bomb, and someone else’s rhetoric is responsible for that person’s actions?

    Whose left-wing rhetoric was responsible for the bombings committed by the Weather Underground? How about the crimes committed by the SLA? The Panthers?

    Does anyone on the left understand the concept of personal responsibilty?

    Do I even need to ask?

  5. Iris Lynch says

    Dave,

    You need to understand that K is responding to how HE reacts to words. Many people listen to words and make quite different associations to those words. It is often a wonderful practice as those kinds of people are rarely, if ever, responsible for their behavior. Someone else MADE them do it. Further they have no idea how slavish such a stand is. Imagine being such a Pavlovian person?

  6. “When domestic terrorists like Bill Ayers rears his ugly head after the Obama election and starts pushing for the search and prosecution of gun and religion clinging Americans, will you stand up and defend them?”

    Of course I will. I believe in the 2nd Amendment. Let me say this without equivocation: You cannot have the 1st Amendment without the 2nd. I agree with the NRA when they say that we don’t need more gun laws – we need to enforce the ones we have already. Unfortunately, the NRA doesn’t want to do that either.

    Your concept of the species known as the “liberal” is woefully outdated.

    “There is a struggle over various religious fundamentalism, Jihad being the most visible, but the religious fundamentalism of the Christians and of the Jews is equally troubling.”

    And if it weren’t for Christian and Jewish terrorists like Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, John Salvi, Earl Krugel, etc. I might dismiss Ayers comments as drivel as well. Unfortunately, there’s a trail of bodies that doesn’t allow me to do that.

    “…equal reaction to such political movement by citizens who will see themselves and their efforts as valiant efforts to preserve and protect this country and its heritage.”

    Which, of course, is what I’m sure Timothy McVeigh used to comfort him as the needle was sliding into his vein to deliver a dose of sodium potassium. If you want to preserve and protect the country – run candidates who aren’t an anathema to the majority of the population.

    “Purchasing firearms is just one small indication of this anticipated outcome.”

    Which is why I own one.

  7. “You’re serious? Some idiot sets off a bomb, and someone else’s rhetoric is responsible for that person’s actions?”

    And how did he get there, Dave? How did he get from American soldier fighting for freedom to slaughtering hundreds of his fellow citizens? How did he get to see the shattered bodies of pre-schoolers as the Empire’s “stormtroopers”. Do you think he just wandered into a bookstore and said “Huh, here’s a book I haven’t read before! ‘The Turner Diaries’, hmmmm. Looks good!”

    You believe that Rev. Wright’s words are heavy with meaning, and yet you absolve your own fanatics of responsibility.

    “Whose left-wing rhetoric was responsible for the bombings committed by the Weather Underground? How about the crimes committed by the SLA? The Panthers?”

    I can give you specific names if you want. Ernesto Guevera and Marcus Garvey to name two off the top of my head.

    Whose rhetoric was responsible for Eric Rudolph? For Paul Hill?

    “Does anyone on the left understand the concept of personal responsibilty?

    Do I even need to ask?”

    Yes, we understand personal responsibilty. Do you? Do you understand that a constant torrent of calling someone, in essence, an enemy of America will eventually lead to someone unbalanced doing something awful?

  8. Wooden Teeth says

    How can you tell a conservative Arizonan from a liberal one? The liberal only owns one firearm.

  9. And the Palin effigy is justly deserved?

  10. No more so than the now several Obama ones, which of course, you don’t give a damn about.

    But I’m not making the equivalency between hanging an effigy and leaving a nail bomb in a park during or doctor’s office (including one set up later to kill responding police and firemen).

    Or parking a truck full of explosives in front of a daycare center.

    Or stalking a man with a high powered rifle and shooting him in the head with his child in the next room.

    Or wanting to kill 88+14 African-Americans in a Columbine-style attack.

    Or trying to stir up anti-black hysteria by carving a “B” into my face.

    Or shooting a teenager for knocking over your McCain sign.

    But yeah, that effigy was over the line. I agree with you.

  11. kralmajales says

    Klute is right. The GOP supports doing everything in its power to stop terrorists, EXCEPT make it more difficult to get the guns they need to do their evil evil work.

    We should be worrying less that they get across the border and MORE that they can go to swap meet and get a rifle in most states.

  12. “And how did he get there, Dave? How did he get from American soldier fighting for freedom to slaughtering hundreds of his fellow citizens? How did he get to see the shattered bodies of pre-schoolers as the Empire’s “stormtroopers”. Do you think he just wandered into a bookstore and said “Huh, here’s a book I haven’t read before! ‘The Turner Diaries’, hmmmm. Looks good!”’

    How he got there is a subject for his therpist. For you, or me, or anyone else, to assume it was because he read some book, or listened to some speech, or heard it on the radio, or had it beamed into his head from outer space because the tinfoil in his hat wasn’t thick enough, goes *way* beyond arrogance. Who are we to decide that any one thing, or any set of things, was the sole determining factor in pushing some nutbag over “the edge” and into that final act of depravity? Are you omniscient? Is anyone? I think not …

    It is not for us to decide *how* someone became unbalanced. It is enough to figure out that it is so, and to punish the resulting act. Once we start trying to assign motives to people because we *believe* we know the causes of their problems, we have passed from a civil society into “thought police”, and that is a step I’m not willing to take, thank you.

    We have enough problems now, let’s not add “God complex” to them …

  13. “Klute is right. The GOP supports doing everything in its power to stop terrorists, EXCEPT make it more difficult to get the guns they need to do their evil evil work.

    We should be worrying less that they get across the border and MORE that they can go to swap meet and get a rifle in most states.”

    Give me a break! Why would a terrorist want to come here and buy a rifle at a “swap meet”, when our rifles are horribly overpriced and limited to semi-auto only? Any self-respecting terrorist can walk down the street from his home in his own country and purchase a full auto rifle at a fraction of what it would cost here to buy one on the black market, let alone the much inflated cost to buy one legally at a show.

    You watch *waayyy* too much TV. Try looking up something other than Brady Bunch drama before you post this kind of stuff.

  14. Dave,

    “It is not for us to decide *how* someone became unbalanced. It is enough to figure out that it is so, and to punish the resulting act.”

    I see you’ve taken a firm stand in the closing of barn doors after horses have left (I think I’ve made that joke before here). This is the USA, we can’t stop people from preaching hateful rhetoric, and that’s not what I’m suggesting. But I am definately suggesting that as functional adults we can put 2 and 2 together and figure out what turned Mr. Hand into Mr. Fist (to quote the late great Sam Kinison).

    It’s pretty clear what motivated McVeigh. It’s pretty clear what motivated Eric Rudolph and Mohammed Atta and Orlando Bosch. It’s pretty clear in all 4 cases where they get their ideas from. What you’re suggesting is that we divorce all logic and say “Well, Atta listened to all those speeches and went to mosques and madrassas that preached the glory of matyrdom and hatred of Jews and the West but none of that is what motivated him to crash a plane into the WTC.” or “Rudolph listened to all those speeches about babykillers and fags and how Jesus said to trade in your cloak for a sword and killing in the name of Jesus was a path to Heaven, but that’s not what led him to leave a nailbomb in Olympic Park”.

    Come on. Like I said, we can’t police thought, but we can sure as hell look at the causative nature of things like speech and rhetoric and those INDIVIDUALS who are blasting out lies and disinformation can turn the light onto themselves and say “Hey, maybe I can phrase this better”.

    Or, you know, we can be a nation of a million Father Coughlins.

  15. “Come on. Like I said, we can’t police thought, but we can sure as hell look at the causative nature of things like speech and rhetoric and those INDIVIDUALS who are blasting out lies and disinformation can turn the light onto themselves and say “Hey, maybe I can phrase this better”.’

    And do … what? What happens when your “suggestion” is refused? When happens if those that *you* feel are “blasting out lies and disinformation” disagree, and refuse to stop? What then?

    How far are you willing to go to get them to stop? Will the “Fairness Doctrine”, and the attendant muzzling of free speech, be enough? Obama says the NRA is “blasting out lies and disinformation” about him. Should he sic the IRS on them, ala Bill Clinton, Dick Nixon, etc.? How about the FBI, DHS, NSA, [insert alphabet soup agency here], etc.?

    What about pre-emptive war? After all, “Atta listened to all those speeches and went to mosques and madrassas that preached the glory of matyrdom and hatred of Jews and the West …”, right? So GWB was right to invade, if you carry your logic to it’s conclusion.

    So how long until the trains start running? After all, if the people “blasting out lies and disinformation” just keep at it, and won’t listen to reason, surely something must be done eventually …

    Be careful what you wish for …

    One of the many problems with the left is that they start a thought, but rarely follow it through.

  16. Since basically five paragraphs are the same, I’ll respond with one:

    What do I/we/the left do? Nothing. We cannot stop people from being hateful scumbags. All we can do is try to be a better example. Do our mitzvahs, do our charity, live the golden rule. Present to the American people why hope is better than fear. We’re seeing it now. With humanity, change comes glacially, unfortunately, but it does happen. Look at Ashley Todd. A boy named Emmett Till was lynched for whistling a white woman. Today, there were no round ups of black men, no dignity battalions running through the streets looking for a black man to punish. The truth was more important than our basest fears. That’s something.

    You people on the right need to get a freaking grip.

  17. Annie Hoyle says

    Klute,
    May a suggest a little light reading.. maybe a liberal blog. You won’t care that we “need to get a freaking grip” if you would stop peeking into our windows! You go looking for it and WE need to get a grip?!

  18. Paul Hill didn’t do anything wrong, he did the right thing in stopping that babykilling abortionist from murdering any more babies.
    You seem to imply there is something wrong if a babykilling abortion mill is burned or bomb. Which do you prefer, a pile of bricks or a pile of dead babies? Innocent unborn babies deserve to be protected just as born children deserve to be protected. You would have no problem protecting born children if they were about to be murdered.
    SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life. http://www.armyofgod.com

  19. Well Annie, I think Rev. Spitz makes my case for me, as to why I don’t stop engaging.

    He’s your side’s mess. You clean it up.

  20. Klute,

    What is your position on the abolitionist John Brown? Was he justified in his efforts to free slaves? Both Emerson and Thoreau praised him.

    And before anyone suggests that I condone violent civil disobedience, I have stood alongside Planned Parenthood and publicly condemned these acts of violent civil disobedience.

    But why then would the Clinton Administration pass a law (Freedom of Access of Clinics Entrances ACT)that only targeted pro-lifers and not animal rights activists or environmental activists?

    I happen to believe that type of selective political targeting set the stage and level of frustration for people like Paul Hill and Eric Rudolf to take up the gun and kill abortion doctors. Which of course was wrong.

  21. DSW,

    I believe a statue of John Brown (and Nat Turner) should be placed at the front of every Confederate cemetery (but that’s more of my hatred of the Confederacy and another story).

    John Brown was a crazy man who fought when others wouldn’t. My grandfather killed German soldiers as a resistance fighter in WWII. I don’t know if I can fully understand the fire that burned in them. I hope to never have to be in their position.

    But they fought on equal terms with their enemy. Paul Hill attacked three unarmmed people with a shotgun at close range and fled. Eric Rudolph planted a shrapnel bomb in a concert and and in another bombing planted a second bomb designed to kill first responders to inital attack(incidentally Sarah Palin refused to call that terrorism the other day). These are not the actions of a follower of Christ.

    But I prefer the non-violent resistance of King, Ghandi, and Havel. I’ll take up arms if I have to, but I thankfully haven’t been involved in a cause where it’s necessary.

  22. Annie Hoyle says

    Klute,
    If my “side” gets Donald Spitz, then your “side” gets the Weather Underground…. yeah, I’m still not tempted to read your blogs and pick fights! The point? Oh, and your “side” has a bigger “mess” if we want to start listing crazies!

  23. “What do I/we/the left do? Nothing. We cannot stop people from being hateful scumbags. All we can do is try to be a better example. Do our mitzvahs, do our charity, live the golden rule. Present to the American people why hope is better than fear. We’re seeing it now. With humanity, change comes glacially, unfortunately, but it does happen. Look at Ashley Todd. A boy named Emmett Till was lynched for whistling a white woman. Today, there were no round ups of black men, no dignity battalions running through the streets looking for a black man to punish. The truth was more important than our basest fears. That’s something.

    You people on the right need to get a freaking grip.”

    Easy to say, but that’s not really true, is it? It might even be for *you*, personally, but it’s not true for the left, as a whole. Bill Ayers is a perfect example. And if you want to go farther, and see what happens when a leftist manages to get control of a government, you need look no farther than Amin, or Pol Pot, or Stalin, to see what happens.

    I know, I know, the immediate excuse is going to be “But those guys were extremes, that won’t happen here, that only happens once in a blue moon, blah blah blah …” I’ve heard all the excuses already, don’t even bother. If you all weren’t so busy trying to flush away the Constitution with all this “living document” crap, I might even believe you meant it, but the proof is in your actions, not your words.

    It’s not the “right” or the “left”, per se, that needs to “get a freaking grip”, but all of you folks that seem to believe that you are the only ones who have the requisite knowledge to determine the truth of things, are following the “one true path”, and the rest of us had better fall into line right quick.

    Keep in mind that I’m not the one who suggested that it was the rhetoric of others that was responsible for the actions of madmen. I suppose we’ll be blaming Stalin, Amin, Pot, and even Mao on Marx then?

    Will we be including BHO in that group someday, I wonder?

  24. Annie,

    Hmmm. You’re comparing a defunct terror group from the 60s to an active terror group now. OK. I’ll take the WU (even though I don’t agree with their tactics) and you take Army of God (which, you know, no refutation).

    Dave,

    I am glad I do not live in your world, where Obama with his “radical” tax increase of 4% (less than Dwight D. Eisenhower’s upper tax rate – much less) is the intellectual ancestor of freakin’ Pol Pot and Idi Amin. Man, I’m glad I got out of Europe alive in 2005, all those leftists were really good at hiding the rightwinger re-education camps.

    If this is undercurrent to the conservative mainstream, I can only imagine what’s happening on the fringe.

  25. “I am glad I do not live in your world, where Obama with his “radical” tax increase of 4% (less than Dwight D. Eisenhower’s upper tax rate – much less) is the intellectual ancestor of freakin’ Pol Pot and Idi Amin. Man, I’m glad I got out of Europe alive in 2005, all those leftists were really good at hiding the rightwinger re-education camps.”

    (grammar police warning!)

    That would be “descendant”. And his ideology has little to do with his campaign promises regarding taxes. None of which I expect him to keep, FYI. I love the way you all like to duck Amin and Pot, like it all happened so long ago. Sense of history start with your birthday, does it? Would you prefer Darfur then? Recent enough for you? How about Somalia? You don’t have to look real hard to find recent examples of leftists getting out of control. Nor do you have to look real far.

    To bring the point back home, I used Ayers as an example because he seems to be all the rage in the blogs these days, and he is very much alive and kicking in the “educated set”, even if the Weather Underground supposedly isn’t. Perhaps if he had been executed for his treason like he should have been, your argument might have more credence, but he wasn’t, so it doesn’t. But be that as it may, you seem to be having trouble finding more current examples of leftist “terrorists”. Allow me to assist you.

    Look no farther than the Greenie and so-called “Animal Rights” (wow, talk about a non sequitur!) nuts. How many bombings, fires, assaults, etc. have they committed in recent years? Wasn’t it the FBI that referred to them as the most significant domestic threat today?

    Now granted, when one of these idiots chains themselves to a tree during hunting season, I tend to see that as natural selection at work, but this would still be an example of that which you seem to be having such difficulty locating.

    Any further questions counselor, or would you prefer to move to closing arguments?

  26. Annie Hoyle says

    “Hmmmm” is right! You make me chuckle! (and scratch my head a lot)! I have to go now.. It’s time for my morning “get a freaking grip” session! It’s called morning prayer… He brings my life great peace and tons of love! I pray the same for you, Klute!

  27. Ach, I was looking for the word… It’s still early.

    Look, were Amin and Pol Pot on the “left” of the political spectrum. Technically, so were the Nazis and obviously the Soviets. But if you’re saying that Clinton -> Obama -> Pol Pot, no I won’t say that’s valid… Anymore than Reagan -> Bush II -> Pinochet. The right has had its share of evil dictators as well. Are we going to play dictator Pokemon now? Papa Doc Duvalier, I CHOOSE YOU!

    “Perhaps if he had been executed for his treason like he should have been, your argument might have more credence, but he wasn’t, so it doesn’t.”

    Yeah, that nasty ol’ Constitution makes life so difficult those wanting to execute without due process.

    ” How many bombings, fires, assaults, etc. have they committed in recent years? Wasn’t it the FBI that referred to them as the most significant domestic threat today?”

    OK, they’re leftist, yes they’re a radical group. Are they terrorists? I’d say ELF is, Earth First has the potential to be, Sea Shepherd is not (the Law of the Sea interpretation).

    Are you equating chaining yourself to a tree “terrorism”? If so, we’ve way dumbed down the concept. There’s a great Robot Chicken sketch:

    http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=450b0d8a001b2151c7d1173079006c39

    Again, I’m not saying there’s not bad leftists, evil leftists, and leftist terrorists. What I’m saying is they’re not driving the bus and it’s an extremely long walk from Obama’s tax plan to a holiday in Cambodia.

  28. Paul Hill did the right thing and when Eric Rudolph blew up those babykilling abortion mills that was right too.
    Eric Rudolph is not a terrorist, but an anti-terrorist fighter. Those who have killed babykilling abortionists have done so to protect the innocent. People use force everyday to protect the innocent and no one has a problem with it, except when it comes to protecting unborn human beings, then they go ballistic. It’s very simple, the unborn deserve the same protection as the born. Born people are protected with force quite often. Force that you would be glad if it was to protect your children against a murderer. Force that you yourself might use to protect your own children from being murdered. The unborn deserve the same protection.
    SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life. http://www.ArmyofGod.com

  29. Okay, I’ll bite.

    Rev. Spitz, Olympic Park. What was the rational for that? Were they performing open air abortions that night? Or was Eric Rudolph fighting ZOG or something?

  30. Gun bans are a non-sensical way of dealing with the problem of violent crime. Obama’s record is mixed but I do think with the recent SCOTUS ruling and lack of general outcry for new guns laws I question how likely new gun laws will be.

  31. “But if you’re saying that Clinton -> Obama -> Pol Pot, no I won’t say that’s valid… Anymore than Reagan -> Bush II -> Pinochet. The right has had its share of evil dictators as well.”

    Not arguing the point. What I’m arguing is the notion that you orginally put forward … that any one person or group can or should have the power to decide what motivates others. Once you have given anyone such power, then your continuum might as well be there, because it’s a short step from here to there. Apparently you don’t see this. Neither did the Germans, Cambodians, Ugandans, Russians, etc. … until it was much too late.

    “Yeah, that nasty ol’ Constitution makes life so difficult those wanting to execute without due process.”

    To quote Comrade Ayers, “We were guilty as hell, but they couldn’t prove it.” Lucky for them that the Constitution is not a living document, eh? Careful what you wish for, indeed …

    “OK, they’re leftist, yes they’re a radical group. Are they terrorists? I’d say ELF is, Earth First has the potential to be, Sea Shepherd is not (the Law of the Sea interpretation).”

    Back to my original point, that depends very much on who gets to do the deciding. As noted, if we give anyone the power to determine the motivations of these groups, without the incovenience of having to rely on actual physical evidence, or any of those other old-fashioned annoyances mentioned in the aforementioned Constitution, we will have traveled down a slippery slope from which there will be no return. Whether you think it’s valid or not.

    Just an FYI, Hitler was legitimately elected to his original office, and was hugely popular. We like to think that he was some savage dictator that took over by force, but that isn’t the reality. He did that in other countries, but not in his own.

    If you really think we’re immune to this kind of thing here in the US, I have a bridge you’d be interested in.

    “Are you equating chaining yourself to a tree “terrorism”? If so, we’ve way dumbed down the concept.”

    I beleieve I was equating it to madness (and natural selection as well). Perhaps I wasn’t clear?

    “What I’m saying is they’re not driving the bus and it’s an extremely long walk from Obama’s tax plan to a holiday in Cambodia.”

    Once again, *I’m* not talking about *his* tax plan, which I’m convinced is election year BS anyway. I’m talking about *your* assertion that motivation for the acts of madmen can be assigned to the rhetoric of others. Either you are correct, in which case we can expect Obama to follow Marx and his other mentors, which his statements indicating his love of class warfare (“spread the wealth”) are already suggesting, or you’re not correct, in which case we’d need to examine BHO’s record, what little of it there is, which, if anything, may give us even less hope.

    It was your assertion, not mine. You made mention of not wanting to live in my world, and I can certainly see why. In my world, people are responsible for their own actions, and do not cast about seeking someone else’s rhetoric to blame when they say or do something stupid. We don’t seek to live from the sweat of someone else’s labor, nor profit from the fruits of someone else’s endeavors. We have no desire to “spread the wealth”, but are happy to give whatever we have to someone in need, and try to assist them in getting out of need so that they can fend for themselves. And, maybe most importantly, we make sure that everyone can protect themselves, because we know that in the final analysis, when you’re alone in the dark facing a predator, you’re it, and there is no one else. No amount of “let the government do it” will change that reality, no matter how hard you try.

    So yeah, I can see why a leftist wouldn’t want to live in my world, the world of personal responsibility. It’s pretty scary for someone like that, I guess …

  32. Dave,

    I think your points are getting lost.

    1. You’re saying that no one should have the power to control others thoughts.

    2. When they do, it can be used to control the mush-headed masses.

    3. Just like it did when evil leftists get into power.

    So, when Germans turn into “Good Germans” or when a Ugandan decides that his political opposite neighbor is delicious, it’s because they’ve been, in essence, brainwashed.

    But when an Eric Rudolph or Paul Hill or John Salvi bombs and kills, it’s… what? They went from point A to point C how?

    As to your buying of the “spread the wealth” = socialism meme, let’s have some fun:

    “And Alaska—we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs. … It’s to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans.”

    Ol’ Cuda herself, Sarah Palin said that. Collectivization! “Spread the wealth”! Should I now worry that Palin is Marxist? Those comments are a lot more Marxist in their meaning than something Obama said off the cuff on a damn ropeline.

    Just because someone reads something, doesn’t make them something. I’ve read the Qu’ran. Does that make a Muslim?

  33. Klute – what is funny is we have just been though a period of huge redistribution – its just been all upwards.

    Dave K needs to read up on his history. Hitler and the Nazis did take part in electoral process but they also murdered, bullied and beat their way into power.

    In 1932 when Hitler ran for President the vote broke down as the following:

    Hindenburg 49.6 percent
    Hitler 30.1 percent
    Thaelmann 13.2 percent
    Duesterberg 6.8 percent

    In the runoff it was :
    Hindenburg 53.0 percent
    Hitler 36.8 percent
    Thaelmann 10.2 percent

    Once Hitler was Chancellor he and Goebbels found an excuse in the Reichstag fire to suspend civil liberties and go after political enemies.

    Hermann Goering himself best explained how Hitler succeeded:
    “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

  34. I don’t think its my points that are getting lost guys.

    Who was it that said that arguing with a leftist is like trying to teach a pig to sing?

    And no Todd, I don’t need to “read up”, I’ve probably read more history in the last few years than you’ve read in your entire life. I’m well aware of how Hitler came to power. As noted, he was elected. You seem to want to pass over the elections that brought the Nazis to power, and skip to “once he was Chancellor”, as if that occured via magic. The Nazis had gained the dominant share of the votes in the Reichstag, and Hitler was appointed as Chancellor because they had enough power to block damn near anything they wanted if Hindenburg didn’t appease them. From that point, it was largely legislative maneuvering that enabled them to consolidate power. A million gangs of thugs beating up their opponents in the streets would not have pulled it off, had they not been able to secure the cooperation of some of the other political parties then operating in Germany.

    Kind of goes back to my earlier comment about not seeing the slippery slope in front of you until it’s way too late, doesn’t it?

    We could contunue the history lesson if you’d like, and point out the similarities between how the Nazis pulled off their power grab, and how Pol Pot did it, Stalin did it, Amin did it, etc., ad infinitum, but why bother? They all follow the same basic blueprint, and you probably still won’t get it anyway.

    As Mencken once said, “The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.” Guys like BHO are just a small step from guys like these, and they are so for the same reason that guys like you think that rhetoric causes madmen to blow people up. They have no concept of personal responsibility, they believe everything should be done according to the wishes of the group, and, perhaps scariest of all, they want to be the leaders of the group.

    No one but you has ever said that those on “our” side are supposedly free from sin. I have only maintained that they are the better choice, i.e. the lesser evil. The Founders believed that government was a necessary evil, and I agree. But they also believed that it should be kept to the barest possible minimum, and I agree with that as well.

    Given the choices we have, neither of which would have been my first, it should be obvious to anyone which is the better.

    If it isn’t, I can’t help you.

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