Sat 19 Dec 2009
News out of Washington this morning that Senate Democrats have secured their 60th vote from Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska. This guarantees that the federal government will now begin its takeover of 1/6th of our economy.
Now that the country is intensely divided between those paying the taxes to support those living off the taxes (read REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH) I would expect those who pay into the system to stop paying altogether through tax avoidance. I’ve seen it happen before in the private sector so don’t be surprised to see it start to occur at all levels.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:27 am
In a way it’s already started. 10% unemployed nationally – 15% upwards in some places. No employment, no tax payments. To reduce health care mandate requirements, businesses will lay off more employees- every single employee on payroll will cost a business MORE. The unemployment is snowballing, steadily inexorably. The media is busting itself to maintain the illusion that the economy is improving, HIDING the DECLINE.
The Democrats are pushing the USA to the stagnant French model. Many Americans are not aware that a large percentage of the very well-educated French working population – in their most productive years – can’t be employed ANYWHERE for more than 8 months. AT 8 months of employment, people are fired, because after 8 months ALL the healthcare, pension, etc benefits kick in by law. Companies have a small core of career people who get the benefits, the rest they simply fire the people and hire new ones. One cannot be employed with the same company in any other position, it’s 100% termination.
There is no career development, people work 8 months and wander looking for new work, a month or two unemployed, then 8 months somewhere else, again and again. Due to regulation that favors established, politically connected behemouth companies, it’s very hard to start new businesses.
One can’t save money, because savings are used up during the unemployment periods.
Really depressing life, with no way to build and get ahead.
Horrid.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Interesting. I actually can’t imagine a bill that is farther away from takeover of the health care industry. No public option, nothing tied to Medicare payments, looks like a big hand out to the health insurance companies.
@wanumba – one assumes you think you can sell this nonsense about France because most readers here have never spent time there, it is not a depressing life.
Oh, and the French have been doing rather well through the current financial crisis.
December 19th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I’ll disagree with you, Shane. The government and law enforcement have done a great job of cowing the masses into submission. Almost everyone is afraid to REALLY oppose the government for fear that they’ll be the ONE nailhead sticking up that the government hammers down. We’ve seen in other countries that the masses APPLAUD the onset of socialism, then languish under it’s not-so-tender mercies. And if the lemmings demonstrate or riot, it’s for MORE government, not less. Heck, all the trolls on this site want more government too!
Also, we’ve seen right here in Arizona that if you don’t pay your taxes, you get shot. Remember that poor tax evader that got shot by Pinal County law enforcement going to his mailbox a number of years back? Who’s going to be man enough to kill the army of jackboots that come to force you to pay or haul you off to jail? And if you do decide to employ your Second Amendment rights to use firearms to repel government oppressors, you’ll wind up dead. People are also brainwashed into thinking law enforcement are heroes and our protectors and they can’t be questioned. No one is smart enough to realize that the pigs are human, that they make mistakes too, and they’re just as corrupt as the rest of us. Additionally, they are the very boot of government upon our neck, present to ensure we OBEY what government tells us to do. Watch, I bet at least one retard comments about how, “Totally awesome!” law enforcement really is and they’re protecting us and doing their jobs. Lemmings. What was it G. Gordon Liddy said about law enforcement officers?
Sorry, Shane, those factors don’t add up to tax revolt, they add up to cowed submission.
Congress (both Dims and Rs) has also made a show of prosecuting those who use offshore tax havens. Who’s going to face heavy fines or jail time alone? So, with tax enforcement efforts increased due to the money-grubbing governments wanting more of our hard earned dollars in an economic downturn, I don’t see the unwashed masses suddenly growing cajones, uniting, and making the government stare down the barrels of guns, because that’s what a REAL tax revolt will take. Nobody’s gonna do that, Shane, they’re all too scared and weak.
“When the government fears the people, you have freedom. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.” – Thomas Jefferson
December 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
I don’t see it either. Wiseful thinking by the losers of the last election, at best—particularly since the taxes are placed on the higher income brackets (and are pretty modest at that). In the end, what the Senate is about to pass is the Romney Massachusetts plan with MUCH stronger cost control mechanisms (that largely use competition as the means for cost control so conservatives should like them). The result in Massachusetts was a huge increase in the percentage of insureds, and despite a lack of cost controls a reduction in cost growth compared to other states. And, oh by the way, the Massachusetts plan remains very popular,
December 19th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
The keyword is “avoidance” rather than “evasion.” Those who can hire tax attorneys will find creative ways to legally avoid paying taxes. I just wish I could stop paying the 7.65% out of my wages and I’m sure my employer would love to do the same. Maybe we will see a proliferation of 1099 independent contractors over the years ahead as one way of crimping the tax system. But I am hearing rumblings that many high end contributors are going to pull out of the system and adopt a “bunker” approach and wait it out until a conservative Congress and President retakes control and begins to reverse the sharecropper socialist economic policies forced on us by these socialists.
December 19th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
DSW,
This is a nice thought… but its a dream that will never happen. You have even already backed off your initial post. You started with talking about general avoidance by those who pay taxes generally and now its people who can hire tax attorneys… which is a an extremely small part of the population.
Lets be honest some people will be upset and take action but the overwhelming vast majority will take this and deal with it. The way they do with everything else.
December 19th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
I have not backed off. The largest percentage of taxes are paid by those who can hire tax attorneys. These are the ones the Democrats always assert are the ones who don’t pay their fair share. Now they will move their wealth to other places where it can be sheltered and avoided. You may be correct that the rest of the sheeple will continue in their malaise.
December 19th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
DSW:
The folks who can already afford tax lawyers already have them and there is a limit to legal avoidance.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
This chart shows who actually pays the bulk of income taxes in the United States. The Top 10 Percent of Income Earners Paid 71 Percent of Federal Income Tax.
When the cost of paying these taxes exceeds the cost of avoiding (not evading) these taxes, these individuals will lower productivity or find other means to shelter their income.
The chart is provided courtesy of the Heritage Foundation compiled by data from the Internal Revenue Service.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Todd,
You and Dr. Dean are right that it is a massive hand out to the insurance companies, but the federal role and federal mandates also increase. It’s the same old story: Big business loves big government and together they suck more power and wealth from the rest of the country. It would be better to kill this monstrosity.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
DSW -
AS you note, your chart is only for federal personal income tax. If one includes payroll and consumption taxes of all kinds, households in each quintile of income pay about the same percentage of income in taxes (This is from the Tax Foundation). It is not true to state that there are those who pay taxes and those who live off taxes.
The wealthy have had to pay much higher taxes in the past, during which time was the most economically prosperous in history (the two decades post WWII). Yes, when the top marginal rates were around 75-90 % there was tax avoidance, but I don’t foresee that level of taxation ever occurring again.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
James,
We can both agree that this is a monstrosity.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
todd,
The chart I inserted into my comment (above) came from the Heritage Foundation from data sourced from the IRS. Click on the chart to enlarge it or go to the site itself and look at the bottom left corner.
The following chart comes from the Heritage Foundation showing the breakdown of Federal Reserve sources. This data was compiled from the Congressional Budget Office. I will let the chart speak for itself.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
DSW – my statement refers to all taxes not just federal. In total people at all income levels pay the same percentage in taxes, the difference is what type of taxes.
You chart does bring up another issue. Today corporate taxes make up 12% or less of federal revenue. In the 1950′s it was 28%. Thus shows the dramatic shift in tax sources at the federal level.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
todd Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Interesting. I actually can’t imagine a bill that is farther away from takeover of the health care industry. No public option, nothing tied to Medicare payments, looks like a big hand out to the health insurance companies.
@wanumba – one assumes you think you can sell this nonsense about France because most readers here have never spent time there, it is not a depressing life.
Oh, and the French have been doing rather well through the current financial crisis.
…………….
How do you KNOW the bill has all those things? DRUDGE is reporting that Reid is hiding the bill.
You a Democrat partisan helping withhold info about the bill from Republicans and the PUBLIC?
And Oh! A Francophile! Where do you stay in France and how often do you go?
How is Ex-President Chirac’s embezzlement trial going?
Our kid’s French school was burned to the ground by rampaging mobs who were furious at the French for selling them out in a cease fire negotiation, the French were chased out of the country … losing millions of francs of assets and private businesses. We got an earful from French citizens about their problems and lack of future in France.
We passed this on in good faith, but Todd’s worldview can’t handle it so he must blot it out as inconvenient. Can’t have people sitting up and saying, “You mean the media is feeding us a pack of lies?” or perhaps, “Why doesn’t the media TELL us this stuff?”
Uninformed people are easily mislead by those who do not have their best interests at heart.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
There are retail stores and restaurants closed already – big blank holes at strip malls, shopping malls, city and town streets. Construction and trades are DOWN DOWN DOWN. NO one can make a sensible business decision when they do not know what the Democrats intend to attack next month or the month after that or in six months or one year. So, unemployment is going UP.
But the spending-intoxicated Democrats want to insert a giant, inefficient bureaucracy between patients and doctors. This gives politically connected Democrats a chance to get unbelievably rich. Already, it’s being reported that stimulus money is being directed to Democratic Party districts 2-1 over GOP districts.
WHat a surprise! Force money thru government and the politicians and bureaucrats take their cut.
Classic Third World governance. Government as the means to wealth, not business.
It’s just stunning that Democrats actually think they can do all this without destroying the country.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
wanumba – I am not a Democrat. How on earth you think I am withholding anything from anyone is beyond me.
I am also not a Francophile. You may hate them for all sorts of reasons, my point was about actual life in France and the strength of their economy.
I am glad the French are willing to investigate previous Presidents for corruption and malfeasance. Sadly, that is not something we in the US seem to be able to do.
Interesting you rely on anecdotal evidence rather than actual facts. This indicates someone who prefers to accept only what fits his preconceived notions.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
wanumba – also, when you are going to start a sentence with ‘DRUDGE is reporting…’ I would take that as a sign you might want to look into the claim a little more.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
todd,
One thing I’m glad to see is that you’re intravenously connected to Sonoran Alliance.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
DSW
yeah, well I am going to abstain now. ciao.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Well, Todd, you claim all sorts of things, then you dodge the questions.
You just claimed all sorts of things about the Health Care Bill and there’s NOTHING available to the public at this moment that supports your statements.
So what is it? You have inside info via the Democrats who are playing this hand close to the chest or you don’t know what you’re talking about?
You have no personal experience of any kind with France or the French, but you’re quick to poo-poo first hand account, which if you DID know about the French, you’d know was valid, so you don’t know. Thus, what’s the sum total of the input:
“This indicates someone who prefers to accept only what fits his preconceived notions.”
Like the MSM approved meme about DRUDGE, who is only as good as his links … to AP, WaPO, NYT, AFP, LAT, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC … come to think of it you are probably right about that. They’ve all been caught lying about, omitting, and manufacturing news.
December 20th, 2009 at 9:08 am
For those who doubt – listen to Shane. I report with honesty from my world that the revolt has begun. I refuse to pull the load any longer – not one more day. Estate taxes are the easiest to avoid. Income taxes are also easily avoided through timing and characterization lags, sales taxes are for suckers. Internet shopping rocks(for now)! About the only things I havent figured out how to avoid are utilities tax and fuel tax – although if I wanted to go get a diesel and do biodiesel I probably could. I have committed myself to living a tax-free lifestyle and so far I’m having great success. What isnt usually evadable is deductible – with enough creative thinking. It will be a million years before they catch me.
I will no longer pay for the privilege of being held captive and continue to remit the fruits of my labor as a free individual.
December 20th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Another motivating factor that will lead to a massive tax revolt will be the issue of abortion. If the final version of the bill requires every taxpaying American to pay a tax/fee/surcharge for abortion, millions of Americans will reject it. People of faith will particularly reject it as a matter of conscience. Will the Obama Administration really want to round up hundreds of thousands of Catholics, Evangelicals, Catholics, Orthodox Jews and Muslims who reject having to pay?
December 20th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
You guys keep voting for Democrats with an (R) after their name like McCain.
What did you think you were going to get? Lower taxes and deregulation? lol.
December 21st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
“Well, Todd, you claim all sorts of things, then you dodge the questions.
You just claimed all sorts of things about the Health Care Bill and there’s NOTHING available to the public at this moment that supports your statements.
So what is it? You have inside info via the Democrats who are playing this hand close to the chest or you don’t know what you’re talking about?
You have no personal experience of any kind with France or the French, but you’re quick to poo-poo first hand account, which if you DID know about the French, you’d know was valid, so you don’t know. Thus, what’s the sum total of the input:”
@ wanumba What was in the current bill has been well-publicized – your claim is that some provision has been kept secret. If you make a claim like that you need to support it.
Also, I never said I have no personal experience with France or the French, I said I am not a Francophile. Seriously, do you have a reading comprehension problem?
December 21st, 2009 at 10:21 pm
………………..
todd Says:
December 21st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
What was in the current bill has been well-publicized – your claim is that some provision has been kept secret. If you make a claim like that you need to support it.
……………
A 2,000-plus page bill no one has read that was voted on in the DEAD of night and it’s been “well-publicized?”
Back up your claims.
January 19th, 2010 at 6:08 am
All I can say is that what ever proposals they should make it must be fair and taxes must be benefited by the public. thanks!
May 19th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Payroll servicing can be tricky and difficult to do if you arent an expert, sometimes it wouldnt hurt considering some other possibilities.