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	<title>Comments on: Arizona Mayors Play the Shell Game</title>
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	<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/</link>
	<description>Arizona Politics, News, Commentary and Information with a Blatantly Conservative Worldview Presented by an Alliance of Writers, Activists, Consultants and Government Insiders.</description>
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		<title>By: Travis</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212708</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212708</guid>
		<description>http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2009/11/19/20091119cr-tomcolum
n1118.html

Another opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2009/11/19/20091119cr-tomcolum" rel="nofollow">http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2009/11/19/20091119cr-tomcolum</a><br />
n1118.html</p>
<p>Another opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Travis</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212469</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 04:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212469</guid>
		<description>The video of the mayors discussing this is on the Arizona Republic&#039;s website. Before anyone criticizes them based on the analysis here, they should watch the video. Looking for a more stable tax base with changes made to the confusing current tax formulas makes a lot of sense. I don&#039;t think the analysis by papatodd was very good based on what I heard coming directly from the discussion. People should judge for themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The video of the mayors discussing this is on the Arizona Republic&#8217;s website. Before anyone criticizes them based on the analysis here, they should watch the video. Looking for a more stable tax base with changes made to the confusing current tax formulas makes a lot of sense. I don&#8217;t think the analysis by papatodd was very good based on what I heard coming directly from the discussion. People should judge for themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: todd</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212430</link>
		<dc:creator>todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212430</guid>
		<description>papatodd - Arizona has been lowering taxes for 30 years. What are you talking about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>papatodd &#8211; Arizona has been lowering taxes for 30 years. What are you talking about?</p>
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		<title>By: papatodd</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212402</link>
		<dc:creator>papatodd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212402</guid>
		<description>Yes Todd, you are right. Politicians act irresponsibly for years and the solution is to always, always, always raise taxes.  They are responsible for this mess and the burden always falls on the tax payer.  They are NEVER held accountable for the that which THEY DO. I should be more like you, Todd.  I&#039;ll just happily pay more taxes for the rest of my life, smiling all the way way.  Got to go the store now, time to buy some more KY jelly. Congress is in session.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Todd, you are right. Politicians act irresponsibly for years and the solution is to always, always, always raise taxes.  They are responsible for this mess and the burden always falls on the tax payer.  They are NEVER held accountable for the that which THEY DO. I should be more like you, Todd.  I&#8217;ll just happily pay more taxes for the rest of my life, smiling all the way way.  Got to go the store now, time to buy some more KY jelly. Congress is in session.</p>
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		<title>By: wanumba</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212355</link>
		<dc:creator>wanumba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212355</guid>
		<description>UH OH!  It&#039;s not even next year...
from DRUDGE thru BREITBART:
..........................
Dramatic Footage: Near Riots at UCLA Over Proposed 32% Tuition Hike

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Hundreds of protesters chanted, marched and took over a building Thursday on the UCLA campus, where University of California regents were scheduled to vote on a 32 percent student fee increase. 
The UC Board of Regents is considering boosting undergraduate fees—the equivalent of tuition—by $2,500 by summer 2010
......................
Over 10% unemployment and rising, higher than that in many places, and the PhDs at the university have ONE solution to their problem: RAISE TUITION.  32% !!!!!

Food courts, massage, saunas, luxury dorm options, shen fui, yoga, student life recreation monuments, no expense spared, coffee shops, soaring atriums, $10,000- $50,000, $100,000 guest speakers, campus bus systems for mass transit instead of private vehicles, green promotional programs ... an ivory tower unto itself, where everyone is 18-29, a sort of open air mall Logan&#039;s Run world.
Nope, everything is essential!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UH OH!  It&#8217;s not even next year&#8230;<br />
from DRUDGE thru BREITBART:<br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..<br />
Dramatic Footage: Near Riots at UCLA Over Proposed 32% Tuition Hike</p>
<p>LOS ANGELES (AP) &#8211; Hundreds of protesters chanted, marched and took over a building Thursday on the UCLA campus, where University of California regents were scheduled to vote on a 32 percent student fee increase.<br />
The UC Board of Regents is considering boosting undergraduate fees—the equivalent of tuition—by $2,500 by summer 2010<br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.<br />
Over 10% unemployment and rising, higher than that in many places, and the PhDs at the university have ONE solution to their problem: RAISE TUITION.  32% !!!!!</p>
<p>Food courts, massage, saunas, luxury dorm options, shen fui, yoga, student life recreation monuments, no expense spared, coffee shops, soaring atriums, $10,000- $50,000, $100,000 guest speakers, campus bus systems for mass transit instead of private vehicles, green promotional programs &#8230; an ivory tower unto itself, where everyone is 18-29, a sort of open air mall Logan&#8217;s Run world.<br />
Nope, everything is essential!</p>
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		<title>By: todd</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212348</link>
		<dc:creator>todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212348</guid>
		<description>pappatodd is like someone who, becoming healthier after reducing caloric intake from 3600 per day to 1200 per day, thinks they can be even more healthy if they go down to 400. 

look, the answer is simple and frankly inevitable, barring some massive second stimulus, they are going to have to cut parts of the budget and raise taxes. what gets cut and where the taxes get raised are going to have to be debated. this continued dickering around is going to in the end mean actually higher taxes than if they would have figured this out last January.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pappatodd is like someone who, becoming healthier after reducing caloric intake from 3600 per day to 1200 per day, thinks they can be even more healthy if they go down to 400. </p>
<p>look, the answer is simple and frankly inevitable, barring some massive second stimulus, they are going to have to cut parts of the budget and raise taxes. what gets cut and where the taxes get raised are going to have to be debated. this continued dickering around is going to in the end mean actually higher taxes than if they would have figured this out last January.</p>
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		<title>By: johnny</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212332</link>
		<dc:creator>johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212332</guid>
		<description>Sorry I should have cited the article I got this from, its a Washington Monthly article written around Reagan&#039;s passing.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0301.green.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry I should have cited the article I got this from, its a Washington Monthly article written around Reagan&#8217;s passing.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0301.green.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0301.green.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: johnny</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212331</link>
		<dc:creator>johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212331</guid>
		<description>Dutch,

You are just straight wrong....

One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year&#039;s reduction. (In a bizarre bit of self-deception, Reagan persuaded himself that $100 billion tax hike--the largest since World War II--was actually &quot;tax reform&quot; that closed loopholes in his earlier cut and therefore didn&#039;t count as raising taxes.)

Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business.

So really no tax hikes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dutch,</p>
<p>You are just straight wrong&#8230;.</p>
<p>One year after his massive tax cut, Reagan agreed to a tax increase to reduce the deficit that restored fully one-third of the previous year&#8217;s reduction. (In a bizarre bit of self-deception, Reagan persuaded himself that $100 billion tax hike&#8211;the largest since World War II&#8211;was actually &#8220;tax reform&#8221; that closed loopholes in his earlier cut and therefore didn&#8217;t count as raising taxes.)</p>
<p>Faced with looming deficits, Reagan raised taxes again in 1983 with a gasoline tax and once more in 1984, this time by $50 billion over three years, mainly through closing tax loopholes for business.</p>
<p>So really no tax hikes?</p>
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		<title>By: Dutch</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212329</link>
		<dc:creator>Dutch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212329</guid>
		<description>Johnny,

Please get your facts straight on Reagan.  The ONLY tax increase he agreed to was the closing of loopholes in the 1986 Tax reform act which didn&#039;t take effect until 1987.  The great recovery in 1983-1984 was entirely due to the tax cuts AND the lowering of interest rates from a peak of 21%.
Tax cuts will not fix our current fiscal crisis because the money has already been spent.  We have no choice but to make drastic cuts, but tax cuts will make our recovery stronger.  Arizona is 4th highest in the nation in commercial property taxes.  That would be a great place to start.
As for Mesa, perhaps if the city office actually tried to HELP businesses succeed instead of doing everything in their power to block new businesses from starting up it might encourage a few new businesses to move there!
Mayor Smith is trying to make changes, but internal bureaucracies are difficult to change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnny,</p>
<p>Please get your facts straight on Reagan.  The ONLY tax increase he agreed to was the closing of loopholes in the 1986 Tax reform act which didn&#8217;t take effect until 1987.  The great recovery in 1983-1984 was entirely due to the tax cuts AND the lowering of interest rates from a peak of 21%.<br />
Tax cuts will not fix our current fiscal crisis because the money has already been spent.  We have no choice but to make drastic cuts, but tax cuts will make our recovery stronger.  Arizona is 4th highest in the nation in commercial property taxes.  That would be a great place to start.<br />
As for Mesa, perhaps if the city office actually tried to HELP businesses succeed instead of doing everything in their power to block new businesses from starting up it might encourage a few new businesses to move there!<br />
Mayor Smith is trying to make changes, but internal bureaucracies are difficult to change.</p>
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		<title>By: johnny</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212325</link>
		<dc:creator>johnny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212325</guid>
		<description>Papatodd,

The idea of go buy a bigscreen tv and save the economy was tried before, that is exactly what some republicans called bushes tax cuts. It didn&#039;t do anything! In fact it made things worse!

My solution is simple you need to temporarily increase taxes now. Just how reagan did in 83 and 84. We have the highest unemployment since guess when... 1983... It worked then after tax cuts failed I would be willing to bet it works now.

Now the increases would only be temporary. And you can attack me for being too left with this idea but its just what reagan did so I guess I am just as far left as him which I am more than ok with</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Papatodd,</p>
<p>The idea of go buy a bigscreen tv and save the economy was tried before, that is exactly what some republicans called bushes tax cuts. It didn&#8217;t do anything! In fact it made things worse!</p>
<p>My solution is simple you need to temporarily increase taxes now. Just how reagan did in 83 and 84. We have the highest unemployment since guess when&#8230; 1983&#8230; It worked then after tax cuts failed I would be willing to bet it works now.</p>
<p>Now the increases would only be temporary. And you can attack me for being too left with this idea but its just what reagan did so I guess I am just as far left as him which I am more than ok with</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212321</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212321</guid>
		<description>Papa
The overall royalties that Texas extracts are far larger than CA. I lived there for 5 years so have a personal knowledge.  Along with funding their University system, royalties also pay for roads and other infrastructure.

Your examples are not wrong, just not applicable because tax rates cannot be cut to the extent your examples were, they aren&#039;t high enough.  The Reagan example is actually a perfect example of how big tax cuts are not the answer.  Reagan cut taxes and soon-after was forced to raise taxes a high higher clip then almost any other president when compared to GDP and inflation. 

My thoughts?  Temporary tax now (3-4 years) ending in off year so it is harder to renew and expiring by law.  Dedicate it to education or other basic services.  Follow it up with a tax cut/reform such as was proposed last year.  Make it beneficial for companies to relocate/focus it on business taxes.

Texas has something CA and AZ doesn&#039;t.  A breaking mechanism that prevents the state budget from growing faster than underlying economic growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Papa<br />
The overall royalties that Texas extracts are far larger than CA. I lived there for 5 years so have a personal knowledge.  Along with funding their University system, royalties also pay for roads and other infrastructure.</p>
<p>Your examples are not wrong, just not applicable because tax rates cannot be cut to the extent your examples were, they aren&#8217;t high enough.  The Reagan example is actually a perfect example of how big tax cuts are not the answer.  Reagan cut taxes and soon-after was forced to raise taxes a high higher clip then almost any other president when compared to GDP and inflation. </p>
<p>My thoughts?  Temporary tax now (3-4 years) ending in off year so it is harder to renew and expiring by law.  Dedicate it to education or other basic services.  Follow it up with a tax cut/reform such as was proposed last year.  Make it beneficial for companies to relocate/focus it on business taxes.</p>
<p>Texas has something CA and AZ doesn&#8217;t.  A breaking mechanism that prevents the state budget from growing faster than underlying economic growth.</p>
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		<title>By: papatodd</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212315</link>
		<dc:creator>papatodd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212315</guid>
		<description>And if you think that I&#039;m a lone wolf here, you might want to read this story.

To Create Jobs, Cut Taxes and Spending 
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024987.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And if you think that I&#8217;m a lone wolf here, you might want to read this story.</p>
<p>To Create Jobs, Cut Taxes and Spending<br />
<a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024987.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/11/024987.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: papatodd</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212314</link>
		<dc:creator>papatodd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212314</guid>
		<description>I;m going to go back to comment#1.  Roger says that Texas is doing OK because it has that great natural resource OIL and that makes all the difference.  I beg to differ.  Here is a tale of two states.  Texas vs. California.  While Texas does have oil, so does Ca.  As a matter of fact California probably has more natural resources than Texas. Oil, agriculture, tourism, etc. yet even with all those natural resources, Cali is a friggin&#039; DISASTER.  So is it really about resources? I think not.  And to the rest of you nay-sayers, I guess your proposal is to continue to have your income,property, utility, etc taxes to be raised? And somehow magically that will fix our problems?
I find it humorous that even though I gave factual evidence that tax cuts works, those facts are dismissed with &quot;Well it won&#039;t work here because......&quot;  Fine sit at home and watch Survivor and pay more taxes and ignore the concept that if you had more money in your paycheck, you could go get that home project dome or buy that new TV or put on that addition or or or or.  All of which would stimulate all the economys, local state national.  But I&#039;m the crazy one.  Roger Johnny, Todd, what are YOUR ideas and solutions? Got any? OR are you just gonna sit there and bitch about my ideas? Waiting for your intellectual answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I;m going to go back to comment#1.  Roger says that Texas is doing OK because it has that great natural resource OIL and that makes all the difference.  I beg to differ.  Here is a tale of two states.  Texas vs. California.  While Texas does have oil, so does Ca.  As a matter of fact California probably has more natural resources than Texas. Oil, agriculture, tourism, etc. yet even with all those natural resources, Cali is a friggin&#8217; DISASTER.  So is it really about resources? I think not.  And to the rest of you nay-sayers, I guess your proposal is to continue to have your income,property, utility, etc taxes to be raised? And somehow magically that will fix our problems?<br />
I find it humorous that even though I gave factual evidence that tax cuts works, those facts are dismissed with &#8220;Well it won&#8217;t work here because&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;  Fine sit at home and watch Survivor and pay more taxes and ignore the concept that if you had more money in your paycheck, you could go get that home project dome or buy that new TV or put on that addition or or or or.  All of which would stimulate all the economys, local state national.  But I&#8217;m the crazy one.  Roger Johnny, Todd, what are YOUR ideas and solutions? Got any? OR are you just gonna sit there and bitch about my ideas? Waiting for your intellectual answer.</p>
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		<title>By: wanumba</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212259</link>
		<dc:creator>wanumba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212259</guid>
		<description>Government is perfectly capable of getting OUT of plenty of services the private sector can handle, with competition and private sector employment instead of government payroll, but that common sense option is being resisted.

Businesses are cutting back.  On what logical basis does government insist on status quo, even raising taxes of any sort, when people are losing work and their homes?

Many universities and colleges are also in la-la land, many with tuition increases planned for the coming year despite double-digit unemployment now.  They seem to expect that more government loans will enable students to continue to pay higher tuition, but the rational public response to a weak job market, job losses and financial uncertainty is to go to cheaper colleges, or forgo colleges because the average public will not take on more debt if they believe they will be unable to repay it. And the availability of government student loans is based on taxes, and with double-digit unemployment, tax revenues are falling, as unemployment payments demands are rising.  Unlike the private sector which promotes a growing economic pie with new industry, business and job creation, the government budget pie is fixed, limited by the total tax intake. If the private sector stops growing or shrinks, the tax intake follows.  In the case of colleges, more money to student loans means less money for the unemployed, who need to eat and pay their bills this week, this month.  Which one takes priority? 
Obama is promising more economic depression.  This is the beginning of worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Government is perfectly capable of getting OUT of plenty of services the private sector can handle, with competition and private sector employment instead of government payroll, but that common sense option is being resisted.</p>
<p>Businesses are cutting back.  On what logical basis does government insist on status quo, even raising taxes of any sort, when people are losing work and their homes?</p>
<p>Many universities and colleges are also in la-la land, many with tuition increases planned for the coming year despite double-digit unemployment now.  They seem to expect that more government loans will enable students to continue to pay higher tuition, but the rational public response to a weak job market, job losses and financial uncertainty is to go to cheaper colleges, or forgo colleges because the average public will not take on more debt if they believe they will be unable to repay it. And the availability of government student loans is based on taxes, and with double-digit unemployment, tax revenues are falling, as unemployment payments demands are rising.  Unlike the private sector which promotes a growing economic pie with new industry, business and job creation, the government budget pie is fixed, limited by the total tax intake. If the private sector stops growing or shrinks, the tax intake follows.  In the case of colleges, more money to student loans means less money for the unemployed, who need to eat and pay their bills this week, this month.  Which one takes priority?<br />
Obama is promising more economic depression.  This is the beginning of worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Mesanite</title>
		<link>http://sonoranalliance.com/2009/11/18/arizona-mayors-play-the-shell-game/comment-page-1/#comment-212258</link>
		<dc:creator>Mesanite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sonoranalliance.com/?p=6089#comment-212258</guid>
		<description>Papatodd can you please explain how any of that helps us in AZ this year.  Also can you address the fact that Mesa hasn&#039;t had a property tax yet haven&#039;t reaped significant business relo benefits. 

Regan is my hero but I admit that his tax cuts don&#039;t necessarily count since he soonafter had to raise taxes dramatically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Papatodd can you please explain how any of that helps us in AZ this year.  Also can you address the fact that Mesa hasn&#8217;t had a property tax yet haven&#8217;t reaped significant business relo benefits. </p>
<p>Regan is my hero but I admit that his tax cuts don&#8217;t necessarily count since he soonafter had to raise taxes dramatically.</p>
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