Tue 11 Aug 2009
Obama’s Health Care – Beyond the Pale
Posted by Veritas Vincit under Culture , Demographics , Family , Government , Health Care , Human Condition , Legislation , Privacy , Protests , Regulations[47] Comments
Here what the Acorn Organizer-in-Chief has to say on the topic,
“You can’t fix the economy, without fixing health care.”
An issue affecting less than 59 million Americans (out of a population of about 330 million). Of course, if there were less people there’d be less pollution, more for everyone else, and fixing the economy would be much easier (especially if they don’t have to pay out Social Security to the Baby Boom generation now coming into the system. But how to do that?
And here’s the special interests, the big drug companies who stand to recover their paltry $150 million to change your entire future…
WASHINGTON (AP) — The nation’s drugmakers stand ready to spend $150 million to help President Barack Obama overhaul health care this fall, according to numerous officials, a staggering sum that could dwarf attempts to derail Obama’s top domestic priority. [a special interest of Biblical proportions]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/08/08/drug-industry-helping-obama-overhaul-health-care/
But who wrote those thousands of pages of health care legislation? Your elected officials or their staff? Who’s Orwellian vision is this [e-u-g-e-n-i-c-s] program? Have you ever heard of Jacob Hacker or Tides Momentum? How about Senator John Kerry? Yes? you recognize that name … well remember his ‘french’ wife, Theressa?
The Tides Foundation is her ‘progressive’ organization and a part of the
Open Society foundation network (George Sorros) and the Tides Foundation (Theressa Kerry):
www.tides.org/tides-foundation/index.html
This quote is taken from Tides Momentum 2008 Plenary Session, the guy quoted is the guy who designed those thousands of pages of “health care reform” now sitting before the U.S. Congress. Remember his name, Jacob Hacker.
For the first time since 1992, we can more than just hope that the U.S. healthcare crisis will somehow be solved—we can see real possibilities emerging. Already on the ground and in the trenches in the U.S. and abroad, Momentums Health plenary speakers are laying the foundation for system-wide changes
Since 1992? A crisis? Have you listened to these guys?
Well, it seems very few folks are even aware they exist. Yet BigDrug Inc is willing to invest $150,000,000 to ram this health care nightmare through Congress this Fall whether or not you like it.
The last video for you to digest is complete disinformation about the disinformation from the White House Office of Disinformation … note the old video footage. Oh, and that guy Jacob Hacker? Watch
As for ACORN? Just the “community thugs” to enforce CHANGE (whether or not you want it) … and if you’re over 55? the ‘community counselor will be by to dialog with you about hospice’ (monthly until you die). And don’t worry about the health care costs of the mentally or physically challenged in the years to come, DNA screening and abortion will be provided to those found in need – no one will be left out.
Are you ready for Eugenics in the Progressive Era?
August 11th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Please cite where in the HCR bill “Eugenics” is proposed?
August 11th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Duh, Kenny … sometimes you don’t have to actually *use* the word in order to achieve the same outcome. But you already know that don’t you.
Of course there are no “death committees” or whatever some were talking about yesterday. But there will be non-elected government bureaucrats *prioritizing* who gets the medical attention they need first.
Please review the video provided and, click to “Have you listened to these guys”. There you’ll find, in their own words, the world they are attempting to create.
August 11th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Right now, there are non-elected health-insurance bureaucrats “prioritizing” who gets medical attention. And that’s for those who are lucky enough to have health insurance.
As for the others: Well, they must be less-productive members of society because they don’t have jobs that provide health insurance. So they don’t get care under today’s system.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
This article reads like someone just threw every right-wing hot-button issue into a hat and then randomly pulled them out. ACORN – ABORTION – EUTHANASIA – FRENCH – EUGENICS. I mean there is not even a reasoned thread linking this all together.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
todd, your remark is disingenuous. btw todd, where does ACORN get the funds to hire trainees in every major city for $24K/yr?
basil, i have medical insurance and, any procedure is available to me. i’m not sure your opening statement is accurate – and other readers know it too.
Anyone who reads history knows that the income tax was to be temporary to pay the debt on WWI … and SSI was to be paid at age 65 too.
Point is, no Trojan Horse has a banner on its side stating: Warning, hostile intent contained within.
These thousand plus pages will have the details written into administrative code by mid-level officials of various H&HS workers until they fill volumes of administrative code.
Those reading this who work for a government agency know how this always works.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
oh, basil… what exactly is AHCCCS and Mercy Care? Why are they bankrupting Arizona? What is MediCal?
So you last paragraph is false. But you knew that already when you posted it.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Please stop being sheep. It isn’t about democrat, republican, or independent. It’s not about slick-worded arguments. It is about becoming government owned. And I for one refuse to let them own me, or tell me my value based upon my health. Thank you for the informative site.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Todd, that is because they are bat poop crazy. Thank god that the rest of America is seeing this now and that the backlash is occurring. We are not going to let a bunch of liars harm the future of this country with their, at best and kindest, propaganda.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“Duh, Kenny … sometimes you don’t have to actually *use* the word in order to achieve the same outcome. But you already know that don’t you.”
Yeah!!! And you don’t have to SEE fairies to believe they are still here watching over us!
August 11th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
“kralmajales Says:
August 11th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Todd, that is because they are bat poop crazy. Thank god that the rest of America is seeing this now and that the backlash is occurring.”
rasmussenpoll ~ Support for Congressional health care reform falls to new low… 42% favor, 53% oppose…
August 11th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
VV, answer the question, where is eugenics referenced in the HCR bill? If you can’t back up your fear-inducing rhetoric then it should be withdrawn. I know I’m asking alot of you, but this is how adults discuss issues on which there is disagreement, with facts. I’ve asked you to be responsive in the past, you never fail to disappoint.
You make claims about HR 3200, you ignore the questions. Here comes an ACORN reference, an AHCCCS attack, you truly are shameless.
A commentator brings up a fact of private insurance and HMO plans, that corporate bureaucrats prioritize healthcare, and you simply close your eyes and wish it away.
53 million + are without healthcare insurance, their needs are met by all of us through higher costs and less successful outcomes. We pay more and get less, VV, and you seem to support that fact.
One more question, how do we know you aren’t a paid lobbyist or shill for the insurance industry?
August 11th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
One more thing, you have no understanding of how AHCCCS works. It is a bid process that insurance companies work very hard to succeed and win. It encourages preventative care and has a very low overhead cost compared to private plans. AHCCCS is a model of success. You would know that if you weren’t busy carrying the water for insurance industry.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
A bit of a different read from Gallup. Lots of time and lots of chance to get this passed.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122234/Constituents-Divided-Highly-Partisan-Healthcare-Reform.asp
And even Sarah Palin is not telling you all to “dial it back”. America is starting to see the protests in very unfavorable ways and this will likely be what gets the bill passed.
Like, if I were a Senator or house member reading the Gallup poll, I’d be thinking…hell with those people trying to intimidate me, Im voting for it.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Kenny,
They can’t find euthanasia in the bill because its not in there and they prefer to imagine it or frankly lie about it. Which shows the character, or lackthereof, of these Americans.
I would not base public policy on the rantings of these Americans.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
sorry, Sarah Palin is NOW telling you to dial it back…not NOT dial it back.
August 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Talk to the small business community. The current health care system is not working. businesses can’t stay open and continue to afford health care for themselves or their employees. Go out as a self-employed individual and try to buy an affordable policy. If you have a pre-existing condition you can’t get insurance at any price.
Why can’t we discuss how to fix the current system rather than get caught up in the crazy distractions of “death panels?”
August 11th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
VV,
I am not being disingenuous. If a could find an actual argument you are making I would be happy to debate it. Please tell us where ACORN gets its funding.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
EXACTLY Bill…I truly wish more small business owners would speak out on this issue because honestly, you are getting squeezed and are having a helluva hard time competing for labor when you have to offer benefits to get employees to choose you.
Now, take that internationally, where our global competitiveness is at a massive disadvantage because some places dont have to pay for ANY healthcare and our businesses do. The bottom line, after awhile, just doesn’t look so good, even with the tax breaks some corps get…when the health costs driven by THIS MARKET…work the way they do.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
I have been a successful small businessowner for over 30 years. I am for reform of the private system, yet I am against a government takeover.
I would like to see a move away from employer funded healthcare, and a move toward affordable, individual choices.
I would also like to see tort reform, however we all know why that hasn’t been included in any bill.
The insurance companies have already agreed to not exclude pre existing conditions, and will not cancel coverage if you become ill or lose your job, etc. The caveat is that there has to be a mandate for everyone to be required to purchase coverage, and policies will become more affordable because there is a plethora of new customers.
The mandate has to be there or else the private sector will go bankrupt and nobody will have any choices in their healthcare.
90% of my family reside in Europe and they always complain about the socialized system there. A few have come here to the States for surgery and tests because they couldn’t stand waiting in pain for 9 months-1 year to have surgery.
I say reform the private sector, but I don’t support a government takeover for a myriad of reasons, but mostly because the government can’t really run anything efficiently.
Obama, albeit unwittingly, said it himself earlier today:
“UPS and FedEx are doing just fine. It’s the Post Office that’s always having problems.”
Enough said.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Gin…
See, that’s just it, your post is eloquent, clearly informed, but is missing the fact that there is just not going to be a govt. takeover. There may be a public option plan, which I support, just to add to existing options in the private sector. So you should be on board, if you aren’t already!
There are other place where public options do not crowd out, but co-exist with the private sector quite well. One example is Medicare another is the federal student loan program which offers loans from Uncle Sam as well as private banks and finance companies.
The rhetoric of those in the tea pary, Americans for Prosperity, and others is misinformed and frankly based on lies.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
So, if the public option is just not as competitive or good (like the Post Office you use as an example–although I use it often), then you can shop the private sector.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
gjn,
My husband is a small business owner and we agree with you when you say “affordable, individual choices”.
Kralmajales,
You see, the problem, as I see it, isn’t being able to shop the private sector if I don’t like the public option or that there will be a goverment takeover … The problem is that I DO NOT WANT TO PAY FOR YOUR HEALTHCARE WITH MY TAX DOLLARS!
I actually would love to see health insurance placed back into the role it was originally intended for… for catestrophic use only!
August 11th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Annie, you already pay for the healthcare of others with your tax dollars.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
I know! I’ll say it again… I do not want to pay for your healthcare with my tax dollars! (“your” refers to anyone)!
August 11th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Now we are getting some honesty from Annie about what this is really about. You see healthcare for people who lose their jobs and cannot afford it as welfare. Well…fair enough, but most of America does not at all agree with that. Most of America knows that it is not at all that simple. And most of America knows that the private sector FAILS to provide adequate healthcare at affordable costs…without a safety net.
If the debate comes down to this, which Annie captures well, you all lose. Which is why you are fear-mongering.
That simple folks.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Kral,
President Obama cut a deal with Big Pharma. He has no cred left. The price: Big Pharma pays for his commercials supporting his bill. It is disgusting and you Liberals should throw up at the way he has betrayed you.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Kralmajales,
Oh, you have no idea what this is really about for me! We lost our daughter to leukemia when she was 3 years old. She battled it for a year and a half to no avail! We were ruined financially for a long time! We spent a year and a half in and out of the hospital with her. I have seen more situations than you can imagine with the families of all of the children with cancer! (My daughter also had Down syndrome).
We are a very hard working middle class American family! I am a stay at home Mom with 4 healthy, beautiful children that all attend Catholic School! We pay for their braces, schooling, food, clothes, AND healthcare out of our own pockets! We have not had any business for over a year (which is as good as being unemployed) and, thanks to being good stewards with our money, I am still a stay at home Mom, we still have our modest house and 2 cars. Don’t you tell me about being unemployed! There is more creative financing going on at my house right now than you can imagine!
Kral, I’ll tell you what my husband tells our children all the time… Blowing out my candle doesn’t make yours burn any brighter!
August 11th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Fear-mongering??!!! I ain’t ‘fraid of no POTUS!
August 11th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
What a minute James, you mean the big socialist Obama is working with multi-billion dollar corporations and not trying to destroy them? Who would have guessed this would happen?
August 11th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Todd,
Socialism is famous for its leaders selling out. Daniel Ortega going on the New York shopping spree, dachas for the Soviet Polituro, hard currency market for the Cuban Party leadership.
It’s classic liberalism. Do what I say, not what I do.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Liberalism or socialism. David, try and get your -isms straight.
Anyway, since Obama has never been a socialist but is essentially a cautious center-liberal Democrat, this is not surprising as this is a reprise of what typically happens with liberals. They start off aiming way too low because it’s ‘realistic’ and then make a convoluted mess of the process. For another example one only needs to look at Clinton’s disaster of a health care reform effort.
BTW, I have never understood the brouhaha with Ortega’s shopping spree. Buying bullet proof glasses seems like a smart move when you have a CIA backed terrorist army gunning for you.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
kralmajales,
It is very ironic, as you note, the idea that people don’t want to pay for others health care. This is not just through the current government run health care system but also through the fact that when uninsured people do receive health care it is at an extremely high cost of delivery and the cost gets shifted to everyone else since they cannot pay. (There is also the issue that people with health insurance who have low health care cost subsidize those with high expenses, but that is how insurance works and is a whole other issue). If we had a health care system like many other countries we would also be paying a whole lot less for care as well.
There is certainly one way ‘the market’ can drive down costs and that would be to allow hospitals to simply deny care to anyone who does not have the appropriate level of insurance and/or income/assets. Of course there are some real problems if people have to run a credit check on someone who is screaming with burst two day old burst appendix and has been avoiding going for care because they have no insurance. But more than this, no one, outside of a real sociopath, is willing to claim that people should be denied care because they don’t have the right job or a big enough savings account. This is one of the reasons that it has been long known, outside of people who have a religious belief in ‘free markets’, that health care is not like most any other area that ‘the market’ can claim to impact.
August 11th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
VV – you rock.
Here’s where eugenics is located in the bill. Maybe it’s hidden other places, too. Of course it doesn’t come right out and say that they are going to kill anybody. Who would vote for that? They have to disguise it to get it to pass. Once written into law, it won’t be long for ANY administration to follow through with the systematic elimination of the surplus population.
From Peter Fleckstein’s personal review of the bill:
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/whats-in-healthacre-bill.html
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “adv. care planning consult” will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates
PG 429 Lines 10-12 “adv. care consultation” may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life
August 12th, 2009 at 5:23 am
Roscoe,
Even if your crazy-eyed interpretation of gerontology was true, how is that “eugenics”? Eugenics implies the science of birthing the next generation through active or passive means of passing along desirable traits. By the time someone’s at the end of life, odds are pretty good they’ve already bred, passing along their genes, good or bad.
I know when Glenn Beck says things and starts crying you get scared, but you might want to understand what the hell you’re talking about first.
August 12th, 2009 at 7:41 am
Roscoe,
Here is an interview with Johnny Isakson (R – GA) who has been an advocate of this exact thing for years. Perhaps you will believe this if you hear it from a conservative voice.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/is_the_government_going_to_eut.html
It is actually disturbing to hear such a common sense idea that is meant to protect people be turned into something evil. I think you need to find a better source than Peter Fleckstein because he clearly has no idea what he is talking about.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:14 am
Just to point out, VV or whatever personality is writing under that pseudonym has been absent from the discussion for about a day now. VV’s only goal was to carpet bomb SA with panic. Job well done VV, shame on you. You still haven’t substantiated your use of eugenics or your ignorance of ACCCHS. VV, your silence is golden.
Roscoe, your reference to eugenics is way off, none of those refer to eugenics and you should know better.
I have met many small business owners who want to see HCR, their businesses depend on it. VV et. al. work to prevent ANY reform to our healthcare system and will go to any rhetorical ends to do so.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:22 am
One more thing, Annie, can I opt out of subsidizing your Medicare when you join? Do you want to opt out of paying for the VA system for our vets?
I’m sorry about your daughter. Currently our system allows Insurance companies to drop families like yours during an illness or to refuse coverage for those who survived a catastrophic illness. We can do better.
James Davidson, an Ortega shopping spree? Jeez, you always go further off topic than any commentator on SA. Come back to reality and the debate, please. BTW, your Caro references on another string were totally bogus, try citations next time. Is there anything you can be truthful about?
August 12th, 2009 at 10:54 am
re: post #20 … here’s where you keep telling the BIG LIE: in the video provided in this article, is the Organizer in Chief specifically saying he’s favors a “single payer plan” but he’ll not get there right away … but that’s where he’s going.
Read his lips.
kralmajales and Kenny are here to attack and continue shouting down any rational discussion of this issue. They refuse to listen to their Organizer in Chief or even bother to read the legislation.
As for my being out of this blog for a day now, school is beginning and I have grandchildren to think about.
As for AHCCCS, I am intimately familiar with how it works and doesn’t work – along with the costs involved. Additionally I am for many reasons quite familiar with MediCal as well.
Rosco, thanks for the citations! You’re the bomb!
Kenny, you haven’t substantiated your knowledge of ACCCHS or why its bankrupting Arizona, nor have you cited specific segments of the legislation refuting my video evidence and supporting your mindless attacks.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Oh, and 59 million is 18% of the entire US population, meaning 82% have good to excellent health care coverage – not exactly a “crisis”.
btw: How is that 59 million substantiated when in California MediCal provides coverage; in Arizona its AHCCCS; and even migrant guest workers and their families can visit the ER and receive services? Where is 59 million validated in a non-partisan source??
Or is it an estimate provided by some advocacy or special interest group?
August 12th, 2009 at 11:16 am
Kenny Jacobs,
I thought I was pretty clear.
August 12th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Got it Annie, you don’t want to support the VA and I don’t have to support your Medicare, seems like a non-starter to me.
VV, again, show me where the plan does the ridiculous things you say? Eugenics? REALLY?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
VV, you are the one who made statements absent fact. That’s your perpetual M.O. Every issue on this blog you have “intimate” knowledge of, we’ve all met the likes of you, the boring “know-it-all”
http://www.hulu.com/watch/52192/saturday-night-live-penelope—therapy
I take back the question about your role as a health care lobbyist or being on the take. Even someone with that background wouldn’t post something as ignorant as your #39.
August 12th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
You “got it” alright!
August 12th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Just not sure what the “it” is!
August 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Here’s a cartoon that pretty much explains Veritas Vincit’s POV:
http://www.overcompensating.com/posts/20090811.html
The more I think about Roscoe’s uber-tarded statement “eugenics” statement, the more I think it puts it up there with Chewie’s “The word ‘revenue’ means loss of money!” post.
I half expect him to say next:
“The Obama healthcare plan will require the creation of time machines… Our grandparents will be required TO GO BACK IN TIME and kill themselves so as not to burden our government! THE TIME-SPACE CONTINUUM IS AT RISK PEOPLE!!!”
Fortunately, VV’s half-Mexican, half-Swedish, half-English ancestors will be sent back by the resistance to save the world.
August 12th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
FWIW, I just looked up the official definition of eugenics online, and I can see why The Klute would say those things.
At dictionary.com they say “the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).”
That was only part of the definition I was using.
Historically, regimes that practiced the dictionary version of eugenics did so to make a super-race. They wanted only a super-race in their world. Those same regimes killed off the population that they believed was inferior.
That’s the part of eugenics I was referring to.
August 13th, 2009 at 5:38 am
Roscoe,
That’s still not part of eugenics. There is no “other part” of definition other than what you are trying to create.
The Nazis tried to push euthansia (which is the “eu” word you’re actually thinking of) on elderly Germans out of some twisted fiscal discipline, not eugenics.
When you refer to the mass slaughter of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc – you’re refering to genocide, not eugenics.
If you’re going to go off the deep end and use fear (which, you know, I get that’s your only rhetorical argument left, because the right sure as hell doesn’t have any actual solutions), at least know what historical situations you’re referencing.
February 4th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
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