Wed 24 Oct 2007
Update 2: According to the Senate web site Senator Kyl voted no on cloture (voted against amnesty.) Senator McCain did not vote which in effect was also a no vote.
Update 1: I was able to speak live to a person at Kyl’s office and he said that the Senator would not be supporting the bill. NumberUSA is reporting that Kyl is not supporting the bill (further contacts to Kyl’s office are probably not necessary.) I was only able to leave a recorded message at Senator McCain’s office.
Stealth amnesty is back in the form of the mislabeled Dream ACT (S. 2205.) The Senate is scheduled to vote on cloture for S. 2205 around noon D.C. time. A NO vote on cloture will have the effect of killing the legislation. S. 2205 would provide legal status to people who illegally entered the U.S. (aka Amnesty.) It would also provide rights and privileges that are not even available to lawful immigrants in otherwise similar circumstances.
More information available at:
The contact numbers for Kyl and McCain are listed below. Please remember to be polite and concise.
McCain:
or
Washington, DC
Phone: (202) 224-2235
Fax: (202) 228-2862
or
Phoenix, Arizona
Phone: (602) 952-2410
Fax: (602) 952-8702
or
Tucson, Arizona
Phone: (520) 670-6334
Fax: (520) 670-6637
Kyl:
or
Washington, D.C.
Phone: (202) 224-4521
Fax: (202) 224-2207
or
Phoenix, Arizona
Phone: (602) 840-1891
Fax: (602) 957-6838
or
Tucson, Arizona
Phone: (520) 575-8633
Fax: (520) 797-3232
October 24th, 2007 at 9:02 am
I hope and pray that Kyl is on the losing side, and we refuse to punish kids who grew up here, played by the rules, and deserve a right to be law-abiding taxpayers.
If you get your way you’re dooming them to second-class status.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Wrong, SS. You’ll just be encourgaging more people to send their kids to live with relatives, etc.
I would be able to donate to a scholarship set up privately for kids who need it.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Sam,
We are not dooming them to anything. Their parents placed them in citizenship limbo. People illegally in the U.S. will become first-class, tax paying, law abiding citizens upon returning to their country of origin.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:48 am
You’re missing the point. THIS is where they were raised, and this is the culture they know.
The other point, which rarely gets discussed in the immigration firestorm, is that these kids CAN’T get legal status under current law.
Unless, of course, they’re God-fearing, Republican-voting Cubans. In that case, if they put one finger on U.S. soil, they’re welcomed.
Yeah, it’s a fair system.
October 24th, 2007 at 10:23 am
You’re missing the point. If the parents brought them here illegally it is the responsibility of the parents to make arrangements for their education. It is not the responsibility of the taxpayers to subsidize their college education or to grant them amnesty.
You are correct, it is not fair that parents put their children in citizenship limbo.
October 24th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Gnat: I guess we agree that the system isn’t fair to the kids, even if we diverge on whether we have an obligation to right a wrong…..I’ll take common ground wherever I can find it.
October 24th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
The point gnat makes is one that is continually missed or conveniently dismissed. The parents made the decision to become illegal aliens; it is a chosen way of life not indentured servitude. That way of life is as an illegal resident in a land where there is great benefit for its citizens. However, they are not citizens and they do not gain benefit by merely existing here.
The parents made a choice to come here; they must make the choice of how to educate their children. If they have been benefit to the greatest society ever known without the need to contribute directly and abide by our laws, that they cannot send their children to college at our expense is hardly a negative.
October 24th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
So what should we do with kids who were brought here as babies?
Should they remain as illegal aliens ad infinitum?
October 24th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Tell ‘em to move to Cuba – and then they can swim to Florida, and gain legal status simply by placing one foot on U.S. soil.
Oh, and tell ‘em to make sure they vote Republican – or else.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Great points and arguments Sonoran Sam. Well done.
Ya’ll should put a wall on the coast of freaking Florida…tell those folks fleeing communism to screw off. And…if they made it here and brought babes with them…they aren’t Americans either.
GET IN LINE FOLKS, HUH?
October 24th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
As a conservative, pro-family Republican I am in favor of the DREAM act but suggest that it be amended to prohibit its beneficiaries from ever sponsoring their parents.
There is a biblical principle that children should not pay for their parents’ sins and I think that it applies here (tho we have no moral obligation to legalize them). It is also unrealistic to expect an 18-yr-old to self-deport (perhaps by air) to an unknown country.
Further, we have usually spent ~$100k on the K-12 education of these kids. Thus, our economy should be the one to benefit from our investment in their education. This is a matter of simple, economic self-interest.
October 24th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
It’s time to quit spending tax money to support the education of children who do not even belong here. It’s nonsense to make excuses for it.
They, and their parents, need to go back to their country of origin (read Mexico) and quit stealing money needed to educate our own children.
The Dream Act is simple Act I of a multi-act play designed by liberals to give our country away to criminals who entered her illegally. It must be stopped.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:37 am
Perhaps the very best thing to happen, for both the ‘innocent’ children of illegal immigration and US citizens, is for them to go back to their country of origin and experience for themsleves the ’sainted’ ideas they have of that country; apply legally for the US, and appreciate what they are getting instead of the possibility of becoming infil-traitors. Love it or leave it.
October 25th, 2007 at 8:35 am
I have no ill will toward children who, through no effort or fault of their own, find themselves in a position of hard choices. Nevertheless, the parents need to accept responsibility for having placed their children in that position. They chose to come here illegally and stay. No one ever promised them anything, except maybe deportment.
If one of my children desired to attend college in another state, they would not get in-state tuition. It would be a choice we would have to make. So should they.
Community college, a job maybe…work your way through. Enough already at the expense of taxpayers who have subsidized years of public education in K-12.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Ann: You and I often line up on different sides, but I have come to respect your views and admire your ethical approach to being a conservative.
People should pay their way, and as I understand the DREAM act, these kids would have to commit to two years of public service – in the military or some other forum.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:18 am
What I find unfortunate about discussion on this blog is that it often goes down a road of chest thumping over who has the most hardcore “conservative” position.
Iris Lynch’s response is case in point. That’s not a serious response to a serious questions.
So my question still stands: What do we do with folks who were brought to this country illegally as babies?
October 25th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
To me this is no different than what happens to any child that their parent breaks the law. They suffer the consequence. A parent that purchases a house or car with illegal money has them seized along with their bank accounts. What happens to the child? They are then forced to move, sometimes into a whole new world of foster care. It’s not fair to the child but the choices of the parent do affect the child. Bottom line is the parents knew what they were doing was illegal and it should be their responsibilty to take care of their kids. If they get deported let their parents figure out what to do about it. Why is it our responsibility to even worry about it? I don’t think it is.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
There are great minds everywhere and the lives of all are improved with the development of each one. Some of them just happen to be in the bodies of children who have developed into Americanized children while not having legal residence status. If a private entity, organization, or institution of education sees the value in developing that mind and are wiling to accept the cost, as with any blue-chip recruit anywhere in the world, WONDERFUL. I had no problem with the ASU Foundation, a private organization, developing tuition reimbursement scholarships from private donations for those who did not meet the requirements of the Presidential Scholarship.
If we, as a country, decided that to bring some great minds to the US for improvement of the lives of Americans we offered scholarships with payback obligations, WONDERFUL.
But… to use tax dollars to pay for the college scholarship of children of those who have broken our laws, accepted benefits to which they had no right, and then basically grant amnesty to the parents and a number of other relatives just isn’t the same thing.
Now… if we had a legitimate guest worker program and the children of those people, while they are legally employed, promised to serve public service in exchange for in-state tuition and rights to scholarships, etc. with no guarantees of citizenship, I would be OK with that. The education is the benefit they have received they must pay it back. Then if they apply thru legal methods for citizenship, again WONDERFUL. Or, they may choose to go back to their native country and take with them the wonderful things they learned in American and make changes for the good!
October 25th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Ann:
The Guest Worker program is awash with problems. These “guests” have children, who are given the automatic gift of U.S. citizenship. No doubt you’ve heard of chain migration? Those Anerican-born US citizen children of illegals can be the conduit to facilitate bringing in the entire family under a program known as “family reunification.”
Let’s get real here. Illegal immigration is a major and extremely costly problem.
Our medical, educational and crinial justice system is buckling under the enormous weight.
The 12 million figure we hear has been used for the past decade. Reasonable estimates are now between 20-30 million illegals in this country–sending remittances back to Mexico in the amount of approximately 20 BILLION DOLLARS a year. Those remittancces are, next to petroleum, the second largest income source the nation of Mexico has. This is a nation rich in resources. Three borders of the country are coastlines, boasting tourist havens, agriculture is plentiful, they have petoleum and vast reserves of silver and mercury, fishing etc. They also have a corrupt government and a thriving drug industry with Anerica as the targeted chief export.
This is the first immigrant group that marches through American streets making demands and shouting that the entire Southwest belongs to them and will be reclaimed. How many other immigrant communities marched throughout the country waving the flags of the homeland willingly left?
Illegals need to go back or stay home and build their own country with their labors and by electing honest leaders. Mexico has to keep its young, strong people at home to effect such change.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Gerry Mander,
On the contrary, I think this has been a very civil conversation about a difficult subject. It is sad that these children grow up between two nations but not fully belonging to either. The fact is that millions of sad things happen every year in the U.S., to citizens and non-citizens alike. It is reasonable to have a discussion as to how much of the problem the federal government will or will not be responsible for making better. I tend toward less government intervention and enforcement of current law. That does not mean that I do not find the situation compelling, I just don’t like the way those in Washington keep writing the bills to address the situation.
Your question is a good one, what to do with the people brought here during their youth. I would be happy to discuss a reasonable approach after the border is secure. Until the border is secure people will keep entering the U.S. illegally and the same problem will still be with us. Even a “guest worker” program will not stop everyone from coming. Some people will still risk everything for a chance at getting to the U.S. It is reasonable for a nation to regulate who enters the country or else there is no point in even having a border.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Jack,
No disagreement here; any guest worker program would have to be very structured to avoid chain migration and family unification. The benefit would be the job not a pathway to citizenship. Their children should not be citizenship bound based on birth or any other method beyond the apply, wait your turn and quota allocation.
We must get a handle on this. All of the divisions that have done nothing but prevent progress of any kind have in effect represented a default plan, one of no plan.
Secure the borders; set up a strictly enforced and structured guest worker program without benefit of citizenship to the worker or family, go after the cash based businesses and employers that cater to Spanish speaking residents and shut down the ID theft underbelly that develops documents for illegals in order to gain employment, buy houses, and fake citizenship.
But, if there is a talented and capable youngster who can and would benefit themselves and their community through university level education; developing a pay back program in exchange for private scholarship money does not sound like a bad idea for anyone.
October 26th, 2007 at 10:34 am
Ann,
I appreciate your comments on the subject of university education. What about high school-aged kids brought here as babies? Should we educate those kids in public schools? If so, why? If not, why not?
az gnat,
You write, “I would be happy to discuss a reasonable approach after the border is secure.”
Is that to say that you prefer to maintain the status quo on the subject of babies/kids brought to this country illegally until after the border is secure?
I’m not trying to be snarky or put words in your mouth, I just want to make sure I understand.
Second, in your mind, what constitutes the border being secure?
My next comment will get me flamed and probably banned from this board, but here goes: I liked Jim Kolbe.
On the subject of dealing with internal immigration enforcement and border security he said of the security first argument, “But that’s like saying– you know, ‘I’ll be for drug rehabilitation after we stop the sale of drugs.’”
Can we deal with the subject of illegal alien children who grew up here while simultaneously dealing with border security?
(Please don’t be distracted by the Kolbe quote. I know 99% of the people on here don’t like the guy. My questions still stand.)
October 26th, 2007 at 11:02 am
We are legally obligated now to educate any child who seeks enrollment in K-12 public schools and schools are forbidden from asking about legal resident status. It is part of civil rights law; the same series of laws that actually caused the formation of the United States Department of Education. Of course, the intent was not to allow illegal alien children entry into tax supported schools but from keeping children of certain ethnicity or countries of origin from discriminatory attempts to keep them out.
The unintended consequence is that we now are educating, and at great cost, the children of millions of non-citizen, non-tax-payers, who are here illegally. Securing the border and controlling the flood of illegal entries would go a long way to prevent the huge numbers of non-English speaking children in our public schools.
These children are not the perpetrators of the crime and do not deserve to be treated as criminals, lepers in a world they did not choose. Stepping in and preventing the ability of the parent to make the choice to enter illegally, putting the child in the precarious situation of being an illegal with no rights but very Americanized and expectant of all that goes with it, is our responsibility. If we do nothing we are complicit.
October 26th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Ann,
Should the law be changed? That is, should proof of legal status (citizen, permanent resident alien, child of H-series visa, etc.) be required before being allowed to enroll at a public school?
October 26th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
I’m not Ann but yes they should.
October 27th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
They should at least be looked at for consistency with the purpose for which they were developed. It could be that there is a guest student visa that goes along with the guest worker. As long as the parent is paying taxes through a legitimate employer, it is a win-win. Any extra costs for language acquisition could be at a higher state income tax rate with the employers share of the income tax helping to offset the cost since it is the employer who is the beneficiary of the less expensive labor.
Just off the top of my head thought….
December 25th, 2008 at 10:20 am
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