Wed 15 Aug 2007
The resolution at the recent GOP LD-26 meeting recognizing Linda White’s efforts on behalf of the Party was well covered on local blogs.
What the stories failed to mention was two items from Republican National Committeeman Bruce Ash’s speech. Bruce stated that the party will not be supporting the LAW initiative and instead supports letting HB 2779 go into effect. The news is that Ash’s statement received enthusiastic applause from the strongly conservative audience. The backers of the initiative should be very careful about proceeding given the lack of enthusiasm among many activists.
Ash brought up another important issue. RNC Chairman Mike Duncan, without the support of the RNC, stated that the party would be supporting the One Campaign. A resolution to clarify that the party is not supporting the campaign failed at the recent August meeting but Ash felt that it would pass at the next meeting. The One Campaign is another huge claim on taxpayer funds that will do little to fix the problems it intends to address. There was strong support for Ash’s position on Duncan’s unauthorized endorsement.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
That One piece of garbage is a feel-good travesty. There is no way that Republicans should be supporting a measure to take money from U.S. taxpayers to pay off the debts of corrupt third-world backwaters. Here’s an idea, let’s pay off our debts first, that way China can’t use them as leverage against us!
And I’m glad to hear that the party will stand up for HB2779. Somebody should. That was a great bill that gave the people what they wanted. If that means less media attention for Don Goldwater, well that’s a price I’m willing to pay!
August 15th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
John,
You are obviously willing to pay exactly no price to make sure that the will of the people are protected and your prejudice against Goldwater has been made crystal clear for months with your postings on multiple stories. We understand where you are on that issue.
The State Committeemen voted unanimously for a resolution in favor of LAW in January and now with the bribe of money to state coffers, the leaders who were elected on that platform have changed their mind. Wow, doesn’t it make you wonder why? Could it be they are misleading the people and trying to hide the real reason for their change of heart.
Why is it so important to the Chamber people to bribe the Party on this issue? Does after the fact changes to HB2779 happen to come to mind? We already have some southern legislators saying they will vote for changes.
The Initiative is the only way the people can be protected from possible damage as lobbyists and PACs have promised to spend money like never before to affect sections of the law and Nappy has already said she will sign those changes.
Even the legislative leadership that opposes the Initiative believes that the worst thing is for Party intervention in this matter. The Party leaders are the ones who need to be careful.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
By the way no one from LAW has asked the Party for support for the Initiative. If OVD’s cite is accurate, that is exactly what the Party should do at this time – not support and not oppose the Initiative. The Party does not have ownership of the Initiative and should let FLEA and LAW work out for the best of everyone.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Why so quick to attack Don Goldwater? He is one of the nicest, most humble gentlemen anyone would like to know. He has and continues to make great sacrifices for the conservative cause. True, he doesn’t dance to the tune of the Republican establishment wonks and God bless him for that. He truly represents the grassroots of the Party.
As far as H2779 goes, yes the legislature did a great job. We can thank Russell Pearce for that. Without him, it would not have gotten off the ground. The attacks against it started the day it was passed and have not relented. It will not go into effect until Jan 1, 2008 if then. Three Republicans have said they would vote against it if they had to do over. MacGruder, Click, Colangelo and a host of others are sworn to defeat it in court as well as the Republican leaders who helped pass it.
Reagan’s motto to “Trust but Verify” applies here. We have only won a small skirmish. Nothing has been enforced yet. The Feds are continuing to promise as they have for over 20 years.
Why would we trust anything these people said? There is nothing in their illegal immigration control record that we can hang a trusting hat on. Kyle, McCain, Flake, Specter, MacGruder, Click, Colangelo et al. are going to do everything they can to kill H2779. We would be fools to believe otherwise. That is why we must proceed with the LAW and SOLE initiatives. Why throw one of our key weapons away? It makes no sense considering the opposition we face. The Party should not have taken a position for or against the initiatives. It only serves to divide us further, as the attack on Goldwater just showed.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Geez, you think that’s an “attack?” I just said I’m willing to see Goldwater get less media if that’s the price of seeing HB2779 succeed. You guys aren’t? Does that mean you’d rather see Goldwater get media than see HB2779 succeed? I’d assume not.
I don’t hate Goldwater, and I haven’t been posting as such for months. You’re lying. I voted for Goldwater and like the guy.
Oh yea, speaking of lying, what’s with this “the party voted to support LAW” nonsense? The party resolution never said anything about LAW, and why would it? It was passed in January and LAW was introduced when, in March? So you prove yourself wrong when you say that LAW isn’t claiming GOP support when it is. The fact that it isn’t telling the truth about it is probably what’s forcing the GOP to put distance instead of staying neutral.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
FACT CHECK: Here is the resolution that was passed at the January meeting. Please note that it explicitly supports “legislation”.
Resolution – Illegal Immigration – Support for Legislation for Fair and Legal Employment and to Disallow Sanctuary Policies
Whereas, Arizona is #1 in crime, Phoenix 5th most likely city to be murdered in, carjacking, home-invasion, identity theft capitol of the nation, largest/most violent gangs made up of illegal aliens, and
Whereas, 87% of Arizonans want employer sanctions and the laws enforced, and
Whereas, the public overwhelmingly passed 4 illegal alien resolutions by an average of 75%, and
Whereas, each day 5,000 to 10,000 illegals illegally cross our border, more than 600,000 illegals live in Arizona, and
Whereas, an estimated 18 million United States citizens are currently unemployed, and
Whereas, companies that hire illegals have an illegal and competitive advantage over honest employers, and
Whereas, illegal aliens receive 41% of unemployment checks, 62% who work in the United States are paid in cash and don’t pay taxes, and
Whereas, $311 billion in lost in tax revenue because of illegal cash payments to illegals, and
Whereas, illegal aliens are a significant percentage of our prisoner population, and
Whereas, 8 United States Code section 1324(a) makes it a felony to knowingly hire an illegal alien and imposes severe fines/penalties, and
Whereas, sanctuary policies are illegal under 8 USC 1644, and
Therefore, be it resolved that the Arizona State Republican Party supports legislation that:
(1) Enforces fair and legal employment and sanctions against employers that knowingly hire illegal aliens; and
(2) Requires that all agencies and personnel of this state and local governments to fully comply with the enforcement of laws against illegal aliens to the extent permitted by law and remove all Sanctuary Policies.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
FACT CHECK:
According to the LAW website, the initiatives were launched at a press conference that took place at 2:00 PM, Tuesday March 27th at the State Capitol, 1700 W. Washington Street, Phoenix AZ.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Here’s a better idea. Let’s take that one percent and build the fence!
August 16th, 2007 at 5:31 am
PartyGuy,
Thanks for correcting my statement. My memory as to what was passed was just plain wrong, and everyone has my apologies on misconstruing the language of the January resolution.
John,
I was mistaken re:the resolution but mistakes happen without lying. Your comment about Goldwater losing media coverage is a price you are willing to pay is akin to asking when you stopped beating your wife. By the way, if you don’t beat your wife I am sure that is a price she is willing to pay for marital bliss.
I have been at LD meetings where Goldwater has specifically stated that he was not seeking official Party support, just neutrality. He repeatedly said LAW is not a Republican Party issue but an Arizona issue.
The real issue is Pearce and the Executive Committee of LAW agreed without dissent to continue the process pending actual proof FLEA will be implemented without being gelded by the political process.
Goldwater is merely following the direction of those people who were also leaders in the Prop 200 efforts. In fact, all of the leaders of Prop 200 except the current GOP Party Chairman are working on this initiative. Hmmmm.
Remember, the only reason a Constitutional Amendment was passed by the voters to protect Initiatives passed at the ballot box was the history of legislative action that abrogated the will of the people. There is no such protection – and should not be – for laws passed by the legislature. We have a long history of both Congress and our Legislature reversing field on enacted laws passed by previous legislatures. Many people believe LAW is an insurance policy against such future action, especially with the amount of money that has been pledged to make that happen and the statements of the governor and some of the legislators who voted for HB2779 earlier this year.
Patriots throughout history have been attacked by those who support the status quo or who are unwilling to take leadership on critical issues that patriots seem to do naturally – usually at great personal cost.
August 16th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Its not a lie the first time the error is made. After you are shown the facts and continue to repeat the lie anyway, it is no longer an error, it is a lie.
I’ve heard Goldwater repeat the same line about how the party has passed the resolution explicitly supporting LAW and SOLE. I’ve heard Lyle Tuttle and Rob Haney and all the rest do the same thing. They all know it was passed in January and that the initiatives were introduced until March. They all know what the real resolution says and they continue to deliberately and falsely misrepresent the truth. Do you like the sound of that better than “they lie”?
As for wrapping yourself in the flag and declaring yourselves patriots as a defense against being wrong and having people point out that you’re wrong? That’s almost shameful… A nice try at making yourself bulletproof since anyone arguing with a patriot must be an enemy of patriots, right? I’ve been working too hard for too long on these same causes to take that crapola from folks like you.
The difference between us isn’t patriotism, its that I know when I’ve won and can move on to the next battle. I’m not in this for the money, the media exposure, or to preserve a political base for my next big thing. I don’t need to be involved in an initiative to be a somebody or to give me purpose.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:09 am
John,
You’re throwing the “lie” word around rather freely. It can only come back at you. I have never commented on LAW being supported at the State Convention. But I do support the initiatives because I know we cannot declare victory and walk away when nothing has been enforced yet. I have learned, from my brief experience dealing with the Establishment folk, not to be gullible. They are experts of deceit.
If the PCs in opposition to the McCain slate had not prevailed in Dist 11 elections, we would now have Mac Magruder as 1st Vice Chair of the District instead of the able legal councilor and National Federation of Republican Assemblies Treasurer, John Acer. The amount of deceit in that campaign was astonishing. You will recall that Magruder is now campaigning to remove Republican legislators who supported H2779.
One thing it seems we can always be sure of is the abuse of political power by many of those with the financial where-with-all to threaten politicians by withholding campaign funds and support. From DC to the State to the City governments, the story is the same. My guess is that it will never change. We must always be on the alert for actions of lobbyists, in the employ of those seeking financial reward, who exert the power of their money on those in the political power structure. And so it is with H2779. The wizard is telling us to not
look behind the curtain at the moneyed individuals pulling the strings. He is telling us we have already won. We have no reason to be suspicious. We can relax now. Don’t believe him.
August 16th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
If you haven’t said it, then I’m glad to hear it and happily remove you from the list of offenders. Sadly though, it has been said, at least by others, and so long as they drag the party into the debate over the initiatives, the party will have to clarify its position.
But as a district chairman you can help us out, because we keep hearing about how we can’t trust the Legislature (with its GOP majority) to not gut the legislation the first chance it gets. Which GOP legislators are the gutless ones?
August 16th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Surely you jest. You can google just as well as I can for quotes. I suggest Representatives Konopnicki and Flake for starters…regretting that they voted for H2779.
August 16th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
John,
You’re a piece of work. You must be working for NS, MM or the Chamber. I make a statement that was wrong, I was shown the facts and apologized immediately when it was brought to my attention, then you continue to call me a liar. Then you lie about Rob Haney, and apologize when he points out your error, so – following your precedent – I guess you are still a liar? No, just a JOKE!!
Lyle Tuttle and Don Goldwater have not lied either, but you, of course, believe you should be the final arbiter of that without evidence.
You also conveniently ignore the historical facts that make up the main reason people are concerned that the legislation needs an insurance policy by a vote of the public and the fact that the Executive Committee makes the decision as to whether to continue the Initiative, not one person. That’s not a surprise, since these are provable facts.
In addition, you can’t read with context. I did not say I was a patriot, but people like Don Goldwater, Willa Key, Iris Lynch, Russell Pearce, Chris Simcox, Rusty Childress, etc. are. You are aptly named.
Your not being involved in an initiative, or not being a somebody is clear. All you can do is tear down others who are giving thousands of hours in donated time to help this state and this nation. You must feel real proud of your record.
In addition to Flake and Konopnicki, there are at least two other reps who have been quoted in news articles as being forced to vote for 2779 and that they will change their vote if they get a chance.
In case you can’t count in addition to not being able to read, with a two vote margin in the House, that could spell (I’ll do it slow so you get it) t – r – o – u – b – l – e.
Excuse me. I have to go visit the invention of John Crapper – that has a whole new meaning now. I’ll disinfect when done. Bye, . . . . . John.
August 16th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Wow, W Phx has issues… I don’t know who MM or NS are, but I’ll assume they’re bad people.
You’re not the only person on here, so don’t assume that everything said by everyone is intended for you personally. I never “continued to call you a liar”, although I did apologize to Rob. Now you want to get mad at me for apologizing? I don’t get it.
Since you want proof of Don Goldwater lying, here you go, from one of his latest emails, Don writes:
“These business groups have stated “kill the initiative or lose monetary support from business”. Some Arizona Republican Party leaders have wilted under this pressure, in direct opposition of the majority of Republican State Committeemen, who voted unanimously to support the Citizens Initiative “Legal Arizona Workers Act” at the last Republican State Convention.”
That is a lie. As we have established here, and as Don has already been made aware of, the Arizona GOP did NOT vote to support LAW. He knows it and he is lying about it. Now you have your evidence, as does anyone else reading this. Just to be clear, Don knows the truth, and he is deliberately saying what he knows to be untrue. Can we agree that that is called lying?
You criticize me for being “the final arbiter…without evidence”, then tell me that it is clear that I am not involved in any initiatives. Hypocrite, thy name is W Phx Activist. I happen to be involved in both LAW and SOLE, that’s how come I’m on Don Goldwater’s email list. Since you didn’t know that, we can all assume that you also don’t know how much of my time or money has gone into these efforts.
Hmm, weren’t you complaining about me “tearing down others who give of their time and money” or something similar?
So you and Rob say that Flake and Konopnicki are two reps and that there are at least two more? Ironically, right about this time you suggest I can’t count or read. First, Flake is a Senator, not a Rep. You can “read” that on his bio. Second, the initiative passed with something like 45 yes votes. Knocking four or five off of that hardly endangers it. You can “count” the votes and will see that 45 minus 5 is still more than 31.
The fact is that the Speaker of the House has said the bill is safe and there are more than enough legislators who do not want to face an irate public if they turn around and gut the bill. They saw what happened to Kyl and they don’t want that for themselves. I trust the Speaker, do you?
Then you finish strong with some grade school reference to the similarity between my name and a toilet? An impressive display my friend. Impressive indeed!
August 16th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
John,
Let me help you. I admitted I was wrong and apologized. You responded to me with the following: “Its not a lie the first time the error is made. After you are shown the facts and continue to repeat the lie anyway, it is no longer an error, it is a lie.” Seems clear.
In addition, you call Goldwater, Haney, Tuttle and ALL THE REST liars. Having to determine the ethical viability of everyone who disagrees with you must be an indeed heavy burden to carry.
Next, I did not say that Flake and Konopnicki are both reps. And I don’t have to read their bios to know that, but I guess a new person to the state would. I guess you caught Rob in a lie about that. I only said that there were two more reps and that with only a two vote cushion – -. And if you don’t know who NS is, you’re obviously new – maybe from Washington.
You have all you can do to keep your oars in the water without castigating Goldwater. When you give as much to Arizona as he has, you might have the right to question his actions. Until then, why don’t you grow into yourself by dealing with the issues I present.
As to your giving of time, I was just going by your words: “I don’t need to be involved in an initiative to be a somebody or to give me purpose.” Pretty juvenile snide attack yourself, only you are so much more eloquent when attacking a person not even in the blog.
By the way, people who are on the payroll are not giving anything. They are hirelings.
I trust the Speaker (and the President of the Senate and the Majority Leaders) completely, but he will also tell you that whenever there is a bill on the floor he controls only one vote – his. He also stated that the Party should stay out of the fray – both elected officers and paid staff. But then again, you prefer telling only part of the story.
The more I think about it, the more the sounds are similar both North and South of Osborn lately on 24th Street.
You throw around the work crap so often it must be genetic. I knew you would be impressed. You’re so impressionable.
August 16th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
W Phx, you’re getting just plain rude… You both are testy, but somehow you’re taking it too far in every email. Post #15 kicked your butt and #16 didn’t do you any favors. For example, you claim that “Next, I did not say that Flake and Konopnicki are both reps.”, yet your previous post says “In addition to Flake and Konopnicki, there are at least two other reps…” Two other reps, in addition to Flake and Konopnicki… That’s exactly what you said.
Its a minor point, but since you’re jumping down everyone’s throat over points even smaller than that, its worth pointing out.
You’re angry, frankly too angry to be of any productive use to a discussion or debate. That’s what we prefer here on SA. Just being rude and arguing everything for the sake of trying to verbally beat down other folks is unattractive. Are you capable of better? If so, we’d all love to see it!
August 16th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Dang W Phx, you got served!
You also didn’t address the fact that John posted Don Goldwater’s email telling the lie you deny he told. Then you tell him to deal with the issues you present? Man, I’m not denying that you’ve got issues, you plainly DO have issues. But John makes a point about Don that is supported by facts now in evidence. Add to that the facts I put into evidence earlier and your foundation is being eroded pretty darn fast. This is where a thinking man steps back and re-examines his conclusions. If the facts you based them on are in error, the conclusions often are as well.
If nothing else, I’m with Tim on the tone of your posts. Particularly since folks keep pointing out errors in your statements, you really shouldn’t be so strident. It makes you seem a bit unbalanced, like you’re all emotion instead of reason.
You’ve had good posts before on other threads, so have a Coke and a smile and try again later, okay?
August 16th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Tim,
If you want to pick nits, he called me a liar, I said I wasn’t lying, just mistaken, thanked Party Guy for the fact check, apologized for being wrong and John responded by repeating that I was a liar. That set the tone.
Then, Rob H. identified two legislators as Reps and I added that there were two other reps and simply did not correct nor confirm Rob’s statement. If you take Konopnicki, and add the other two who have made statements in the press (there are at least two others who have made private statements), you have at least three GOP reps while your cushion is only two.
The gov would love to gut this bill if she can get cover by saying it came from the Republican controlled legislature. We both know that.
Frankly, Tim, if someone continues to call me, grass roots leaders, elected officials, and THE REST OF YOU liars, I will continue to be offended and, perhaps, it would be helpful if you would take the time and opportunity to hold him accountable for his personal attacks.
I’m capable of working in the arena that others build. It can be erudite and statesmanlike or otherwise. However, I will not let charges questioning my integrity and the integrity of people that I know and respect go unchallenged.
August 16th, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Party Guy,
When you pointed out an error I made, there was no strident attitude, a simple apology was made. I ignored some of John’s issues just like he ignored some of mine. Check those that he is wrong about and did not address.
Also, the cheap shot integrity thing does chap my cheeks especially since he is using a shotgun against decent, honorable people.
August 16th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Where did he “again” call you a liar? I’ve reread his post and it doesn’t call you a liar. So picking nits or whatever, you’re upset at something that didn’t happen and you want to have a big fight over it. That’s not rational. He uses “liar” in post #10, gets corrected about Haney by Haney in #11, apologizes in #12 without even using the word liar, and by post #14 you’re back to swinging away and you defend it by claiming that he called you a liar “again”? Show me where…
You also keep ignoring valid points just to repeat the points you want to try and make. You don’t have a “cushion of two” on this bill like you keep saying. The bill passed with 45 votes. You have a cushion of 14 or 15, or maybe even 16 depending on how you want to count it. 45 voted yes and 3 or 4 may want to change their minds? You’re ignoring the math just to argue. Again, not rational.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Post 5, he says I am a liar and in Post 9 I thank Party Guy for the infor and apologize to everyone for the inaccuracy then in Post 10, the first two sentences of his response repeats the lie charge and includes Goldwater, Tuttle, Haney and THE REST OF YOU as liars.
There is only a cushion of two Republican votes on any vote. We have only been talking about comments in the Press and other places of GOP members. There also have been comments by D’s who voted for the bill that they would not do so again. As I stated in Post 19 PP3, everyone I have talked with at the Capitol agree that most, if not all of the D’s will flip if their vote is a difference maker.
There were attempts to amend – gut part of the bill – by the D’s prior to the final vote and they failed by only two votes each. Remember that this was completed just prior to Sine Die. If you think that the D’s will not vote to gut the bill if they can get the two or three R’s to join them, I just think you are wrong. It happens multiple times each session where they will sign on to a bill they don’t like because they are aware it is not worth the trouble if it will pass anyway. It is a very dynamic situation that the final vote does not convey.
Look at the vote in the US Senate on the Comp. Immigration bill. Look how many Senators changed their votes after it was on the board when it became obvious it was going to fail regardless of what they did. The same type of process was happening on this bill.
My premise is rational, it just takes looking beyond what is obvious.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
See how nice I can be when someone doesn’t call me a liar in conjunction with calling people I respect ALL Liars.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Sorry man, I don’t see it. I think you’re taking the “you” too personally from the second post. I read it as a generic “you” as in “when someone does x, it is y.” Plus, he’s making the point that if you get the truth and then repeat the wrong info, you’re not mistaken, you’re lying. But since you hadn’t repeated the wrong info since reading the truth, he couldn’t have possibly been referring to you. Yet you decided he was and took it personally.
And while I’d like to agree with your math just to be nice, the logic doesn’t hold up. You seem to have at least 3 GOP votes who say they want to flip. In Post #14 you say so. Konopnicki and “at least” 2 others. And you say that every Democrat will switch (according to your many sources at the Capitol). You also say that we only have a two vote margin on any vote. So by your math, we’ve already lost this vote. We lose all the Dems, can only afford to lose 2 Republicans, and are going to lose at least three.
I guess if the Governor’s intelligence was as solid as yours, she’d have called the special session already and flipped the bill.
Of course, its possible that John is right in Post #15 where he writes that the legislators know what will happen to them if they flip-flop on a bill supported by more than 70% of all voters. In which case the bill really is safe. And that’s a good thing… Frankly, Janet doesn’t want to get on the wrong side of this bill either, that’s why she signed it. She has defended its constitutionality as well. She won’t get her Senate seat flip-flopping on this bill either.
August 16th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Wanting to flip and flipping are two different things, I admit, but with so much at atake, the Initiative actually is a club over their head that helps keep them in line.
My point: why should we throw away an insurance policy that the Constitution provides us? One that can’t be changed at a later date. This is especially true with the statements and financial clout of Hamer, Sanders, AGC, Magruder, Click, etc. Don’t forget their threats against legislators who voted for 2779.
If the Initiative Executive Committee decides to stop collecting signatures and something does happen in the legislature, it will be too late to get the necessary signatures to qualify for he 2008 ballot.
Let’s go to scenario number two – worst case scenario. The D’s take a couple more seats in each house of the legislature in 2008 and are two years from another election. Where do you think those R’s will go them? Don’t forget that at least two of them have a business financial stake in this fight.At that point there will not be a chance to correct it for another two years.
Let me take your point on the lying. When I brought up his repeating the charge, he had the chance to say what you just said but he did not. In my life, that’s instructive.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:04 am
Actually in Post #15 John responds directly to you and writes: “You’re not the only person on here, so don’t assume that everything said by everyone is intended for you personally. I never “continued to call you a liar”, although I did apologize to Rob.”
Seems pretty instructive to me.
Maybe you missed it because you were still too busy being angry at everything, but that was the point that a few folks have been trying to make. Discussion and debate yes… Beating people to death no…
Your last post was a good post, whether someone agrees with it or not, it was a good post. Compare that with your earlier rant about spending your time on a toilet and you’ll see more than a little difference.
That has been just a small example of everybody flying off the handle and losing their sense of reason. I’m reading posts where suddenly folks like Randy Pullen are traitors and sellouts who can’t be trusted and who have been bribed (successfully is the implication) just because they disagree with you (not you you, just the general you) on whether or not an initiative should be pursued. That’s insane. Let’s go back to thinking folks, not just emoting…
August 17th, 2007 at 7:25 am
Tim,
Last post for awhile:
While I do get angry when I am called a liar, I get even angrier when people I know who are donating more in time and resources than anyone else in the Party have their integrity attacked unjustifiably. If you take Goldwater, Haney, Tuttle and the Prop 200/LAW & SOLE Initiative leaders, you truly have patriots who have done more over the last three to five years as volunteers for this state than any other similar size group of people in Arizona. They do not deserve such a cavalier backhand assignation from hirelings and others who have sacrificed much less.
As to Mr. Pullen, it would seem that common sense would have dictated that he meet with those who brought an overwhelming majority of the votes for his election and had supported him on his efforts in the fight against illegal immigration in addition to meeting with those who worked against his election and the Prop 200/LAW/SOLE Iniatives prior to going off on a tangent similar to Kyl’s actions earlier this year.
Instead he writes resolutions against their efforts, inserts the Party leadership in a public letter against those volunteers, appears in the RAG making derogatory comments, etc.
Again, this is such a change of direction for him, and it does come after a meeting with the monied establishment, and some people are connecting the visible dots. THat is their fault? They didn’t create the dots, they just look at the dots and connect them.
Insanity is cutting the throats of your long term friends while trying to build a stronger relationship with your enemies.
Thanks Tim and Party Guy for your efforts, I’ll see you down the road sometime in the future.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Okay then, you need to be more specific when you say “Again, this is such a change of direction for him, and it does come after a meeting with the monied establishment, and some people are connecting the visible dots.”
Who did Randy Pullen meet with from the “monied establishment”? We want names. You imply (and sometimes it is plainly said) that he is being bribed by these people, so who are they? If you are going to say that Randy Pullen is changing his position in exchange for money, then you must be specific. You claim that the dots are “visible” so point them out for us. Who offered the bribes to Pullen?
If you want to hide behind a false identity, fine… But if you want to use that false identity to hurl unsubstantiated charges at someone, then that is wrong. You might as well go to work for CBS or The New Republic. Great article on that disgusting practice here: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/no_more_anonymous_please.html
You say you get angry when someone calls you a liar. So imagine how Randy Pullen gets to feel when someone calls him a traitor, a sellout, a liar, and worse. Support your claims or withdraw them. Its the manly thing to do.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Looks like I missed quite a food fight! That said, I’m also curious who W Phx is accusing of offering bribes. Come on man, you couldn’t quit talking for so long, and now not a word? Or were you just blowing smoke?
August 19th, 2007 at 8:06 am
So when we ask for evidence you disappear? Must have been the blogging equivalent of a drive-by… Do you suppose W Phx is actually a Dem just trying to stir up trouble? We never did ask his party registration…
August 20th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
You can run W Phx, but you can’t hide! Someday, somewhere, you’ll post again. And when you do, our questions will be waiting! Bwahhhhh!
August 21st, 2007 at 3:41 am
Since the ‘honorable’ position of full-time lobbyist was conceived, they have always given money to those who support their issues. You can call that persuasion, quid pro quo, or any other term that seems more genteel than bribery, but it is monetary support dependent on specific actions.
Accusing the other person of making personal attacks as the means to attack the other person instead of debating the issue is a debate style as old as time. It reminds me of the Dem art of calling someone a racist if they are for protecting our sovereignty and rule of law.
To quote John from an earlier post,
“An impressive display my friend(s). Impressive indeed!”
August 21st, 2007 at 12:44 pm
I can’t tell who you’re defending Ben, but welcome to the thread! Whatever W Phx wants to call it, bribe or not, he claims to have intimate knowledge of facts and we want to know who he is talking about? We know he is saying that Randy Pullen is the one accepting the bribes, which is a powerful enough charge. But we want to know that he isn’t just playing dirty and throwing around accusations. So we’re waiting for him to tell us who was offering the bribes. He knows we’re going to check what he tells us, so he’s suddenly gone into hiding. That is probably answer enough to our question of whether or not he’s just throwing mud…
August 21st, 2007 at 5:01 pm
I seem to remember a press conference made up of business owners, Chamber representatives and other people stating that they were witholding their support for Republican legislators pending activity against the initiative. In fact, didn’t they say that they would actually spend money to unseat Republicans – their historical friends?
Is that a bribe, a threat, or just verbage? Whatever the verbage the meaning is in the ear of the listener.
On the other hand, I am told that Pullen and his staff have been vocal about successful fundraising from those same interests over the last couple of months concurrently with their public statements against the Initiative. In fact, I think I read posts on this site stating that as fact.
That is interesting when put in context with statements from Sprowl(?) and others about a financial boycott ever since Pullen took office.
Little is coincidental in American politics – thats been the same since 1776. I have to leave town on business – hope that helps.
August 21st, 2007 at 6:30 pm
In court, your arguments would be dismissed as hearsay. But on a blog, they certainly count! That said, what you have been told, or recall being told, can still be wrong. The Party is certainly not having any luck raising money from the folks behind WakeUp Arizona, nor are they trying. It is safe to assume that they are raising money from “business interests” but not all business interests are opposed to employer sanctions. In fact, those who play by the rules are largely in favor of it.
So you drew some dots and attempted to connect them to paint a picture of Randy Pullen selling out the initiative to raise money from the WakeUp crowd. That is not true.
Have a great trip!